Roll Call: Post 737Max Return to Service Flights - Your Plans (Planned/Reality)
Apr 20, 2019, 4:11 pm
#46
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 319
It could just as easily be a Ford Pinto kind of thing, e.g. permanent taint.
This long but worthwhile piece by a thoughtful software expert is the best thing I've read about Maxgate... it goes a long way toward convincing me the Max has integral, fundamental design flaws that Boeing should never have tried to remedy with code:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/...ware-developer
So the answer for me is: 1) No, 2) Yes.
This long but worthwhile piece by a thoughtful software expert is the best thing I've read about Maxgate... it goes a long way toward convincing me the Max has integral, fundamental design flaws that Boeing should never have tried to remedy with code:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/...ware-developer
So the answer for me is: 1) No, 2) Yes.
Apr 20, 2019, 6:01 pm
#47
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It could just as easily be a Ford Pinto kind of thing, e.g. permanent taint.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/...ware-developer
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/...ware-developer
Although he is incorrect in one point (which does not make the gist of the article wrong though): it's not the torque due to the engine thrust that's the issue, but torque due to lift on the engine. I made the same mistake earlier... Engine centerline is actually higher, as I understand this.
Apr 20, 2019, 10:42 pm
#48
Join Date: Dec 2007
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IMHO, Boeing let the accountants run the show instead of listening to the engineers. The 737 was, and I think still is, a decent workhorse. But there comes a time when you need to look to new designs instead of trying modify something that's been modified umpteen times already. MCAS is, I feel, the height of trying to push a design past its useful lifespan.
I've flown the 7M8 on AC before. I liked it. But knowing what I now know about MCAS gives me strong pause. Boeing has already delayed the software fix which indicates both their caution at getting it right and probably the complexity of the software. If it's this hard to put out good code, then who know what else may happen with MCAS?
So no, I'm not really inclined to fly the 7M8 if there are other choices.
And on a related note, it seems from this NY Times article that the culture at Boeing may have shifted to profits and production speed first, good airplanes second. I find that really sad.
I've flown the 7M8 on AC before. I liked it. But knowing what I now know about MCAS gives me strong pause. Boeing has already delayed the software fix which indicates both their caution at getting it right and probably the complexity of the software. If it's this hard to put out good code, then who know what else may happen with MCAS?
So no, I'm not really inclined to fly the 7M8 if there are other choices.
And on a related note, it seems from this NY Times article that the culture at Boeing may have shifted to profits and production speed first, good airplanes second. I find that really sad.
Apr 20, 2019, 10:47 pm
#49
Join Date: May 2005
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1. No
2. Yes
3. TBD
I don’t trust Boeing, the FAA or the CTA on this. From what I’ve been reading, it sounds like this isn’t the type of issue that can or should just be fixed with software. I’d want to see these planes cleared by the Europeans and probably the Chinese, an overhaul of process and procedures between the FAA and Boeing, and a period of accident and incident free travel.
I’m not a nervous flyer, at all. But I don’t like these planes and I don’t like the sketchy .... that seems to have happened.
I also have issues with the Dreamliner, but that’s a whole other story.
2. Yes
3. TBD
I don’t trust Boeing, the FAA or the CTA on this. From what I’ve been reading, it sounds like this isn’t the type of issue that can or should just be fixed with software. I’d want to see these planes cleared by the Europeans and probably the Chinese, an overhaul of process and procedures between the FAA and Boeing, and a period of accident and incident free travel.
I’m not a nervous flyer, at all. But I don’t like these planes and I don’t like the sketchy .... that seems to have happened.
I also have issues with the Dreamliner, but that’s a whole other story.
Apr 21, 2019, 8:33 am
#50
Join Date: May 2015
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1. No, because I'm a silly meatbag who would prefer not to for purely illogical reasons. Also I don't like the layout of aircraft, even if it didn't fall from the sky.
2. Yes. Though my flight patterns make it pretty unlikely I'll hit a MAX anytime soon, so this could be an non-issue. Haven't hit one yet.
3. Never have, as noted above.
4. N/A
2. Yes. Though my flight patterns make it pretty unlikely I'll hit a MAX anytime soon, so this could be an non-issue. Haven't hit one yet.
3. Never have, as noted above.
4. N/A
Apr 21, 2019, 9:27 am
#51
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,167
I think there is enough scrutiny on the plane now that it will be safe when it does return ... but even so, I don't intend to be one of the first people flying it. That's partly a safety statement (I think I'd like to see at least 3-6 months of safe operation before I'll feel really comfortable), and partly just that I don't like the plane in Y (too cramped).
So:
So:
- Do you plan to fly on an Air Canada 737Max after its' inevitable return to service: Not for the first 3 months of operation, probably (but reluctantly) yes after then
- Will you alter your flight plans to avoid the 737 Max : Yes, but within limits - if there's an alternative AC routing available, I will likely take that.
- What date did you actually first fly the 737Max again (Hypocrite clause): --
- If 3/ has a date, what drove you to reverse your position as stated in 1/ and 2/ ? --
Apr 21, 2019, 12:28 pm
#53
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As an aviation safety professional then this thread is interesting. Lion Air have crashed plenty of aircraft before this. If they do so again by running off the end of a runway in Indonesia will you not fly? If Air Canada fall off a runway that was icy, will you stop flying.
I have seen some of the work going on to fix the problems. I have heard some of the briefings, etc. I will be flying the MAX in future.
I have seen some of the work going on to fix the problems. I have heard some of the briefings, etc. I will be flying the MAX in future.
An aircraft design and certification flaw has nothing to do with an icy runway, and you know it.
apples and oranges, all that.
Whether lion air is a safe company or not and whether the max is safe or not are separate, valid questions. The answer to the 2nd question is "it wasn't until now" and flinging poop at lion air won't change a thing to it.
Apr 21, 2019, 2:04 pm
#54
Original Member
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Apr 22, 2019, 4:14 am
#56
Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Isn't this whole thread premature given that we have no idea when the MAX will be returning to service? Questions 3 and 4 are certainly unanswerable at this time.
Apr 22, 2019, 6:21 am
#57
Join Date: Jan 2009
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As an aviation safety professional then this thread is interesting. Lion Air have crashed plenty of aircraft before this. If they do so again by running off the end of a runway in Indonesia will you not fly? If Air Canada fall off a runway that was icy, will you stop flying.
I have seen some of the work going on to fix the problems. I have heard some of the briefings, etc. I will be flying the MAX in future.
I have seen some of the work going on to fix the problems. I have heard some of the briefings, etc. I will be flying the MAX in future.
There is normally not a WORLDWIDE grounding of an aircraft because of pilot error and/or a plane sliding off of a runway.
If another question is : Will you ever fly Lion Air?, then my answer to that question is also 'No'.....just like I made a decision years ago to never fly "Valu-Jet".
Apr 22, 2019, 7:47 am
#58
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 1,505
Has there been any word or speculation on Air Canada’s policy when the MAX is cleared again? Let’s say I’m flying YYZ to YEG on October 5. On October 3 the MAX goes back into service. Might AC allow free flight changes off MAX flights for the first X weeks or months if I’m uncomfortable flying on those very early flights?
Apr 22, 2019, 7:59 am
#59
Join Date: May 2005
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My travel patterns are quite varied. I make these judgements all the time for cabin, a/c type, carrier, schedule, etc. Avoiding the MAX is one more factor in my decision matrix. On most of my routes have options (e.g. I avoid Lion Air and Air Asia when I can chose MH, SQ or TG). I will avoid the MAX as much as possible.
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