Direct with stops on AC?
Mar 10, 2019, 7:29 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: YUL
Programs: AC*E
Posts: 779
Direct with stops on AC?
Hello All,
I flew AC 0834 last night YYZ-YUL and was surprised to hear it announced that the flight would continue on to Geneva (GVA), (Fwiw, this was a big plane with 2 door boarding, I've seen other airlines do this, but this was the first time I've seen it for AC.) I have so many questions... I was hoping some of you more experienced flyer can explain the logic of this to me. All passengers were asked to deboard in Montreal even if they were continuing on ("Hold on to your boarding pass"). It appeared as if most passengers were having a final destination in Montreal. Why does Air Canada schedule it like this? I was looking at Flight Aware and it appears like they even change gauge sometimes during a stop, which to me makes more sense as a different flight #. Is there also a crew change? How do I avoid this if I want to travel over seas? But to circle back to my first question, just why? It seems so complicated.
I flew AC 0834 last night YYZ-YUL and was surprised to hear it announced that the flight would continue on to Geneva (GVA), (Fwiw, this was a big plane with 2 door boarding, I've seen other airlines do this, but this was the first time I've seen it for AC.) I have so many questions... I was hoping some of you more experienced flyer can explain the logic of this to me. All passengers were asked to deboard in Montreal even if they were continuing on ("Hold on to your boarding pass"). It appeared as if most passengers were having a final destination in Montreal. Why does Air Canada schedule it like this? I was looking at Flight Aware and it appears like they even change gauge sometimes during a stop, which to me makes more sense as a different flight #. Is there also a crew change? How do I avoid this if I want to travel over seas? But to circle back to my first question, just why? It seems so complicated.
Mar 10, 2019, 7:39 am
#2
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
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You are describing a "direct" flight. E.g., one that makes stops. In air carrier booking parlance, this was a direct flight YYZ-GVA with a stop at YUL for some passengers and a nonstop for those flying YYZ-YUL or YUL-GVA.
This is all about scheduling, aircraft utilization, and marketing. It affects neither you nor a passenger departing YUL. For a passenger seeking to fly YYZ-GVA, it offerrs a relatively seamless travel experience on a route which otherwise cannot be supported because there is not likely sufficient traffic to support service between YYZ-GVA as well as YUL-GVA.
This is all about scheduling, aircraft utilization, and marketing. It affects neither you nor a passenger departing YUL. For a passenger seeking to fly YYZ-GVA, it offerrs a relatively seamless travel experience on a route which otherwise cannot be supported because there is not likely sufficient traffic to support service between YYZ-GVA as well as YUL-GVA.
Mar 10, 2019, 8:32 am
#3
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YUL
Programs: AC SE (*A Gold), Bonvoy Platinum Elite, Hilton Gold, Amex Platinum / AP Reserve, NEXUS, Global Entry
Posts: 5,691
Hello All,
I flew AC 0834 last night YYZ-YUL and was surprised to hear it announced that the flight would continue on to Geneva (GVA), (Fwiw, this was a big plane with 2 door boarding, I've seen other airlines do this, but this was the first time I've seen it for AC.) I have so many questions... I was hoping some of you more experienced flyer can explain the logic of this to me. All passengers were asked to deboard in Montreal even if they were continuing on ("Hold on to your boarding pass"). It appeared as if most passengers were having a final destination in Montreal. Why does Air Canada schedule it like this? I was looking at Flight Aware and it appears like they even change gauge sometimes during a stop, which to me makes more sense as a different flight #. Is there also a crew change? How do I avoid this if I want to travel over seas? But to circle back to my first question, just why? It seems so complicated.
I flew AC 0834 last night YYZ-YUL and was surprised to hear it announced that the flight would continue on to Geneva (GVA), (Fwiw, this was a big plane with 2 door boarding, I've seen other airlines do this, but this was the first time I've seen it for AC.) I have so many questions... I was hoping some of you more experienced flyer can explain the logic of this to me. All passengers were asked to deboard in Montreal even if they were continuing on ("Hold on to your boarding pass"). It appeared as if most passengers were having a final destination in Montreal. Why does Air Canada schedule it like this? I was looking at Flight Aware and it appears like they even change gauge sometimes during a stop, which to me makes more sense as a different flight #. Is there also a crew change? How do I avoid this if I want to travel over seas? But to circle back to my first question, just why? It seems so complicated.
My guess is AC schedules it like this because they want to serve GVA but can only justify it based on the combined demand from both markets. It actually works well and the A330 they use provides extra lift capacity during the rush hour flights between Montreal and Toronto.
The drop in gauge sometimes happens when the TATL portion of the flight is delayed; AC will sub in a narrow-body to operate just the domestic portion.
As for complexity, I guess sitting on the plane in YUL when you’re traveling YYZ-YUL-GVA is better than de-planing, sure. But it’s probably easier from a logistics standpoint to make sure you only have GVA-destined pax when the international portion takes off... it can be an expensive mistake to “forget” a YUL-destined passenger aboard
Also, when flying the other way, all passengers clear Canadian customs formalities in YUL anyway, so they have no choice but to de-plane everyone.
Mar 10, 2019, 8:36 am
#4
Join Date: Sep 2009
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They make everyone deplane to avoid having passengers mistakenly end up at the wrong destination and also more importantly to do a document (passport) check for those continuing on to GVA.
They do the same thing for flights going YYZ - YVR - Asia. Everyone deplanes at YYR where for some passengers this is a final destination. Then they do doc check while reboarding for pax that boarded in YYZ and 'new' pax that are boarding in YVR. Nothing unusual.
They do the same thing for flights going YYZ - YVR - Asia. Everyone deplanes at YYR where for some passengers this is a final destination. Then they do doc check while reboarding for pax that boarded in YYZ and 'new' pax that are boarding in YVR. Nothing unusual.
Mar 10, 2019, 8:38 am
#5
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
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To avoid these in the future, you want to ensure you are on a "non-stop" rather than "direct" flight wherever possible. Mind you in many circumstances there are non non-stop alternatives available.
Other common international "direct" routes on AC include:
YYZ-YVR-SYD
YYZ-YYC-NRT
Other common international "direct" routes on AC include:
YYZ-YVR-SYD
YYZ-YYC-NRT
Mar 10, 2019, 8:43 am
#6
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYT/YYC/TPE
Programs: AC SE, UA, National Exec Elite, Nexus, GE
Posts: 1,810
There are currently only three AC international flight pairs that operate direct with a stop - AC834/835, AC9/10 and AC33/34. All require passengers to disembark and re-board before taking off for the international portion. As has been mentioned, it would be a painfully expensive mistake to have the wrong passengers onboard.
In two months time, a fourth AC flight pair will resume operating the direct with a stop fashion - AC92/93. When this flight operated this way in 2017, all passengers going to EZE disembarked at SCL, cleared security, then continued onto EZE; same procedures the opposite direction.
In two months time, a fourth AC flight pair will resume operating the direct with a stop fashion - AC92/93. When this flight operated this way in 2017, all passengers going to EZE disembarked at SCL, cleared security, then continued onto EZE; same procedures the opposite direction.
Mar 10, 2019, 9:25 am
#7
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
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I don't think anyone's really answered the question.
Why can't they just have YYZ-YUL and YUL-GVA as separate flights?
To the passenger, the only difference is how many boarding passes you have. I can't think of any difference to AC.
It's not like AC 34 pax from SYD have never missed 34 YVR-YYZ before, so it doesn't even guarantee your "connection".
Why can't they just have YYZ-YUL and YUL-GVA as separate flights?
To the passenger, the only difference is how many boarding passes you have. I can't think of any difference to AC.
It's not like AC 34 pax from SYD have never missed 34 YVR-YYZ before, so it doesn't even guarantee your "connection".
Mar 10, 2019, 9:37 am
#8
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYT/YYC/TPE
Programs: AC SE, UA, National Exec Elite, Nexus, GE
Posts: 1,810
I don't think anyone's really answered the question.
Why can't they just have YYZ-YUL and YUL-GVA as separate flights?
To the passenger, the only difference is how many boarding passes you have. I can't think of any difference to AC.
It's not like AC 34 pax from SYD have never missed 34 YVR-YYZ before, so it doesn't even guarantee your "connection".
Why can't they just have YYZ-YUL and YUL-GVA as separate flights?
To the passenger, the only difference is how many boarding passes you have. I can't think of any difference to AC.
It's not like AC 34 pax from SYD have never missed 34 YVR-YYZ before, so it doesn't even guarantee your "connection".
Mar 10, 2019, 10:08 am
#10
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ideally YOW, but probably not
Programs: AC SE*MM
Posts: 1,826
I don't think anyone's really answered the question.
Why can't they just have YYZ-YUL and YUL-GVA as separate flights?
To the passenger, the only difference is how many boarding passes you have. I can't think of any difference to AC.
It's not like AC 34 pax from SYD have never missed 34 YVR-YYZ before, so it doesn't even guarantee your "connection".
Why can't they just have YYZ-YUL and YUL-GVA as separate flights?
To the passenger, the only difference is how many boarding passes you have. I can't think of any difference to AC.
It's not like AC 34 pax from SYD have never missed 34 YVR-YYZ before, so it doesn't even guarantee your "connection".
AC888/889 YOW/LHR actually operates as YYZ-YOW-LHR and LHR-YOW-YYZ but in that instance the YOW/YYZ segments operate as separate flight numbers. Why the difference?
The only thing I can think of is marketing. Same flight number makes it look like there is a YYZ-GVA and YYZ-SYD flight to the FOTSG crowd. There are lots of YYZ-LHR already so need for this with AC 888/889.
Last edited by RatherBeInYOW; Mar 10, 2019 at 10:22 am Reason: Fixed flight numbers. I fly them often enough you'd think I would know...
Mar 10, 2019, 10:17 am
#11
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYT/YYC/TPE
Programs: AC SE, UA, National Exec Elite, Nexus, GE
Posts: 1,810
Agreed.
AC838/839 YOW/LHR actually operates as YYZ-YOW-LHR and LHR-YOW-YYZ but in that instance the YOW/YYZ segments operate as separate flight numbers. Why the difference?
The only thing I can think of is marketing. Same flight number makes it look like there is a YYZ-GVA and YYZ-SYD flight to the FOTSG crowd. There are lots of YYZ-LHR already so need for this with AC 838/839.
AC838/839 YOW/LHR actually operates as YYZ-YOW-LHR and LHR-YOW-YYZ but in that instance the YOW/YYZ segments operate as separate flight numbers. Why the difference?
The only thing I can think of is marketing. Same flight number makes it look like there is a YYZ-GVA and YYZ-SYD flight to the FOTSG crowd. There are lots of YYZ-LHR already so need for this with AC 838/839.
Mar 10, 2019, 10:26 am
#13
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Delta, BC
Posts: 1,646
I have to frequently explain to my extended family the difference between "direct" and "non-stop" flights - and how they are NOT the same thing.
As to why? I believe a lot does come down to marketing and how they sell the "direct" flight and deal with IRROPS/re-routing and re-scheduling of such flights.
As to why? I believe a lot does come down to marketing and how they sell the "direct" flight and deal with IRROPS/re-routing and re-scheduling of such flights.
Mar 10, 2019, 10:31 am
#14
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: YVR - MILLS Waypoint (It's the third house on the left)
Programs: AC*SE100K, wood level status in various other programs
Posts: 6,232
Yeah, it's a common (and understandable) area of confusion and terminology misuse for a lot of people. Glad to see my family and friends aren't the only ones.
