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China - Canada Relations: Impact on Air Canada & Transit of AC Pax

China - Canada Relations: Impact on Air Canada & Transit of AC Pax

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Old Dec 6, 18, 9:17 pm
  #1  
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China - Canada Relations: Impact on Air Canada & Transit of AC Pax

On December 1, the CFO / deputy chairwoman of Huawei was detained at Vancouver airport on an arrest warrant from the USA. She was stopped while in transit. This has sent shivers through the financial market. Aside from her own political connections, she is also the daughter of the company founder who is a key part of the wealthy business elite oligarchy. The allegations yet to be proven relate to the illegal transfer of intellectual property. This event follows the brusque rebuff of the Canadian request of China to stop the dumping of Chinese fentanyl in Canada. and the previous cold shoulder to Canada's attempts to expand trade.

AC has invested in its relationship with Air China and has fervently sought to expand its presence in the Chinese market.
Q1: Will this put a chill on expansion of AC?
Q2: What of AC pax transiting? Will they be hassled?

I am not a fan of transit through PEK or PVG, but sometimes flight schedules and cost necessitate consideration of the option. My big concern right now is whether or not the Chinese will start harassing Canadian pax as has been done in the past. I have experienced it once before and it is most unpleasant.

Now, before anyone says I am over reacting and "fear baiting", I refer to the last arrest & extradition event; In 2014; Chinese national Su Bin, who had permanent Canadian residency, was arrested in BC on charges military espionage. He was extradited to the USA, plead guilty and was incarcerated for 46 months. Following the event, the Chinese government reportedly froze expanded air links and targeted Canadian nationals in China.

And my selfish reason; I have an upcoming transfer and don't want to be subject to special handling.
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Old Dec 6, 18, 10:26 pm
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Not too sure this discussion belongs here. But as far as I know in contrast with China Canada operates under the rule of law. If that affects AC, so be it. Bullying or not.

As to looking at trade with China as the next best thing, there was an old say. People should have seen the writing on the wall a while ago. Again, for AC and other businesses too. Would not surprise me one bit if BBD would regret "technology transfer" deals they made with China.
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Old Dec 6, 18, 11:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
Chinese national Su Bin ... was extradited to the USA, plead guilty and was incarcerated for 46 months. Following the event, the Chinese government reportedly ... targeted Canadian nationals in China.
Do you have a source for this? It's the only connection to your 2nd question, and was not mentioned in the references I looked at.
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Old Dec 6, 18, 11:27 pm
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Very appropriate here as it is likely relevant for many AC passengers

Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Not too sure this discussion belongs here.
Unfortunately few Canadians seem to realise that America tends to think their laws apply to everyone worldwide, and many governments, Canada, UK and Ireland to name but a few, seem to go out of their way to accommodate enforcement actions by American authorities, with little regards for the legitimacy of such actions and total disregard for individual rights.

Under present circumstances anyone contemplating non-essential transfers at Beijing or Shanghai does so at their own risk. Using these routes to save a few bucks is certainly not worth it at the best of times, but definitely not now. Connecting through HKG is still ok - for now - but even that may not last, given the disregard shown for the 1997 SAR 50 year agreement!

Ideally AC should be allowing passengers scheduled to connect in mainland China to reroute!
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Old Dec 7, 18, 12:10 am
  #5  
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
On December 1, the CFO / deputy chairwoman of Huawei was detained at Vancouver airport on an arrest warrant from the USA. She was stopped while in transit. This has sent shivers through the financial market. Aside from her own political connections, she is also the daughter of the company founder who is a key part of the wealthy business elite oligarchy. The allegations yet to be proven relate to the illegal transfer of intellectual property. This event follows the brusque rebuff of the Canadian request of China to stop the dumping of Chinese fentanyl in Canada. and the previous cold shoulder to Canada's attempts to expand trade.

AC has invested in its relationship with Air China and has fervently sought to expand its presence in the Chinese market.
Q1: Will this put a chill on expansion of AC?
Q2: What of AC pax transiting? Will they be hassled?

I am not a fan of transit through PEK or PVG, but sometimes flight schedules and cost necessitate consideration of the option. My big concern right now is whether or not the Chinese will start harassing Canadian pax as has been done in the past. I have experienced it once before and it is most unpleasant.

Now, before anyone says I am over reacting and "fear baiting", I refer to the last arrest & extradition event; In 2014; Chinese national Su Bin, who had permanent Canadian residency, was arrested in BC on charges military espionage. He was extradited to the USA, plead guilty and was incarcerated for 46 months. Following the event, the Chinese government reportedly froze expanded air links and targeted Canadian nationals in China.

And my selfish reason; I have an upcoming transfer and don't want to be subject to special handling.
I think you are over reacting. There maybe some hot air over the next few weeks, then nothing. If China did take a hard line on AC, the Canadian government could cut Chinese Airline out of the North American mkt by closing our airspace to them. We buy way more good from China, than we export to them and the Chinese government understands this.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 12:45 am
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China likes to be pissed at countries, companies and people. It was pissed when Canada shut down its investment visa scheme, of which 80-90% of applicants were from China and there was an eight-year backlog. D&C, and founder Stefano Gabbana, are also currently on China's "naughty list". Japan will be next.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 1:00 am
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This feels to me like an overreaction.

I'm confident the number of Canadians landing at PEK and PVG each day is far more than the Chinese want to specially process.

I've never been treated with anything but complete respect at PVG.

Also, have you any idea how unimportant people like you and I are in the grand scheme of things? We're nobodies, so the Chinese government doesn't care about us, and if they wanted to retaliate or send a message to our government, they most certainly would not choose us.

Travel to/through China with confidence and take comfort in the thought that virtually nobody will know that you're there, nor will they care.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 5:50 am
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Why are you so anxious if you have not done anything illegal? Why are they going to arrest all Canadians because one Chinese is arrested in Canada? This is not a childish an-eye-for-an-eye game. Be relaxed!
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Old Dec 7, 18, 6:30 am
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
My big concern right now is whether or not the Chinese will start harassing Canadian pax as has been done in the past. I have experienced it once before and it is most unpleasant.
Can you elaborate?
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Old Dec 7, 18, 6:57 am
  #10  
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They are not going to bother ordinary Canadians....

But if they want to scrutinize people coming in for work purposes into their country, that's their right. No one forces you to conduct your work in China.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 7:35 am
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Originally Posted by ywlgy View Post
Why are you so anxious if you have not done anything illegal? Why are they going to arrest all Canadians because one Chinese is arrested in Canada? This is not a childish an-eye-for-an-eye game. Be relaxed!
Except, when dealing with China, that's not the real criterion. More like, are you a potentially useful target, which contacts do you have, etc.?
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Old Dec 7, 18, 2:28 pm
  #12  
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Originally Posted by TemboOne View Post
Unfortunately few Canadians seem to realise that America tends to think their laws apply to everyone worldwide, and many governments, Canada, UK and Ireland to name but a few, seem to go out of their way to accommodate enforcement actions by American authorities, with little regards for the legitimacy of such actions and total disregard for individual rights.
Isn't it the case, though, that Canada would not extradite (to the US or elsewhere) if the thing the person is accused of is not illegal in Canada? So while I agree in principle with the above, it's not really applicable in the current instance.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 4:03 pm
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Originally Posted by jjclancy View Post
Do you have a source for this? It's the only connection to your 2nd question, and was not mentioned in the references I looked at.
Testimony before parliament when security concerns were previously raised. However, the retaliatory arrest of Canadians in the past is not fantasy, nor imagined. Here's a public reference.
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...d-in-vancouver

More specifically, if your employer has a K&R policy or has a Political Risk management strategy, it probably has access to the services of specialty firms like Kroll, or Control Risks who provide extensive briefings on retaliatory risks. It is a fact of life that executives of foreign firms can and do get detained for reasons other than bonafide criminal actions.

Originally Posted by TemboOne View Post
Unfortunately few Canadians seem to realise that America tends to think their laws apply to everyone worldwide, and many governments, Canada, UK and Ireland to name but a few, seem to go out of their way to accommodate enforcement actions by American authorities, with little regards for the legitimacy of such actions and total disregard for individual rights.

Under present circumstances anyone contemplating non-essential transfers at Beijing or Shanghai does so at their own risk. Using these routes to save a few bucks is certainly not worth it at the best of times, but definitely not now. Connecting through HKG is still ok - for now - but even that may not last, given the disregard shown for the 1997 SAR 50 year agreement!

Ideally AC should be allowing passengers scheduled to connect in mainland China to reroute!
I will see if I can reroute. However, I am not expecting much sympathy from AC.
In respect to the reference to "American" laws, my understanding is that the allegations for the detention relate to the transfer of technology to Iran. Canada has sanctions that are as strict as the USA's, if not more severe because of events such as the deaths of Canadians while in Iranian custody and spying on Iranian Canadians. As such, to assume that it is a US influence, is overly harsh.

Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
This feels to me like an overreaction.
I'm confident the number of Canadians landing at PEK and PVG each day is far more than the Chinese want to specially process.
I've never been treated with anything but complete respect at PVG.
Also, have you any idea how unimportant people like you and I are in the grand scheme of things? We're nobodies, so the Chinese government doesn't care about us, and if they wanted to retaliate or send a message to our government, they most certainly would not choose us.
Travel to/through China with confidence and take comfort in the thought that virtually nobody will know that you're there, nor will they care.
I agree that Chinese airport officials are usually polite and respectful. However, they aren't the ones who make the decisions. I draw your attention to the spat between Taiwan and China earlier this year which resulted in the cancellation of 176 flights over the Chinese Lunar New Year. It was a petty dispute, tit for tat.

Originally Posted by ywlgy View Post
Why are you so anxious if you have not done anything illegal? Why are they going to arrest all Canadians because one Chinese is arrested in Canada? This is not a childish an-eye-for-an-eye game. Be relaxed!
I did not suggest anything of the sort. However, in the past there have been issues with visas and harassment of certain Canadians. Appreciably most passengers probably have nothing to worry about. However, for people who work for larger multinational firms, it is a concern because they have been previously targeted. I know it first hand, because I have experienced it. My colleagues have too. None of us has been high risk or involved in activities remotely related to espionage or national security. I had no conflict with the PRC.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 4:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
I know it first hand, because I have experienced it. My colleagues have too.
I am interested in what happened to you and your colleagues.
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Old Dec 7, 18, 5:55 pm
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The only thing surprising about this story is why wasn't Ms. Wanzhou flying on a corporate jet?
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