What is it about ex-CP/WardAir employees at Air Canada that make them so fantastic?
May 21, 2018, 8:02 pm
#31
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The reality is long term employees feel secure and more willing to exercise discretion in doing the correct thing for the customer. That should be encouraged and rewarded.
It can also go to far. I remember a few years ago, buying a notebook at future shop from a sales guy who about to resign that day. My best interaction with that retailer in its entire existence. "I have to try to offer you the extended warranty, but you don't want it.", "You can buy that notebook, but look this one is on-sale has the same features and we have far fewer returns from these guys.", "I am suppose to sell you on a new laptop bag, but if you relay want one, this one is good, it is not on sale here, but if you tell me you noticed on sale at the competition I can match it, they have an excellent price. We can pretend you haggled and I can take another $50 off.".
I think the West vrs East things is more of branch office vrs head-office thing. Vancouver is sufficiently far away from Toronto and Montreal that the staff realize the head-office decisions are out of touch with reality on the ground and they try to do the correct thing, sometimes with the support of their local management.
If you want a good example of this outside of the airline industry, Sobeys is a great example. The Safeway and Thrifty Foods stores are suppose to have a big push on the "Toronto Blue Jay sponsorship". Store managers know better and try to downplay it to the extent they can without offending head-office. The same happens in AC and most other national companies run out of Toronto.
May 21, 2018, 8:20 pm
#33
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Yes. The certs weren't "much", (certainly nothing worth making the effort to go bribing for, IIRC), like more of a token reward for employees on behalf of customers, but I know they were greatly appreciated when I gave them out. I forgot the exact number of certs in the package received, but it wasn't more than 12 for the benefit year, IIRC.
May 21, 2018, 9:02 pm
#35
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Yes. The certs weren't "much", (certainly nothing worth making the effort to go bribing for, IIRC), like more of a token reward for employees on behalf of customers, but I know they were greatly appreciated when I gave them out. I forgot the exact number of certs in the package received, but it wasn't more than 12 for the benefit year, IIRC.
and, I asking what are you talking about buddy?
May 21, 2018, 10:51 pm
#38
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This golfing anecdote could have been the same with retired pilots from any airline, anywhere. It's not an uncommon sentiment amongst flight crews; it's general refection upon the airline industry as a whole. Can anybody name a field of work in which the old-timers don't lament the 'good old days'?
Chalking up blame to "lingering government employee attitudes" is grossly inaccurate. The privatization of Air Canada was in 1988; doing simple math indicates that a) very few current frontline AC staff were members of the company during the Crown Corp days and that b) if so, they would have likely spent very few junior years as such - hardly enough time to build a pervasive attitude of whatever it is that government employees are accused of reflecting. We know there are hundreds of thousands of government employees across the country and they must ALL share the same negative stereotypes...(insert eye-roll emoji here).
As for "I work at the airport, you're wrong", this is a tale about interpersonal conflict. Two people shared a testy exchange, the account of which we have only heard from one party. It does not reflect upon the generalized attitudes of workers at any particular venue, location, company nor whether they are publicly, privately or self employed. Details could have been changed to mirror unfortunate customer/staff exchanges in pretty much any industry, anywhere.
I know we would all like to believe the theory that the backgrounds of a segment of a large company's personnel can be identified by their general demeanour today. But most of the above posts are based upon anecdotes. One customers "shining star" is another's "lounge dragon" and vice-versa. Consider the inexorable advance of time, and all the staff turnover, personal life events, corporate restructuring, management changes, industry constraints, seniority, and the evolvement of individuals, the company, the traveling public and indeed the industry. How likely is it that we can neatly categorize shiny happy staff as former CP and miserable old bats as AC?
Chalking up blame to "lingering government employee attitudes" is grossly inaccurate. The privatization of Air Canada was in 1988; doing simple math indicates that a) very few current frontline AC staff were members of the company during the Crown Corp days and that b) if so, they would have likely spent very few junior years as such - hardly enough time to build a pervasive attitude of whatever it is that government employees are accused of reflecting. We know there are hundreds of thousands of government employees across the country and they must ALL share the same negative stereotypes...(insert eye-roll emoji here).
As for "I work at the airport, you're wrong", this is a tale about interpersonal conflict. Two people shared a testy exchange, the account of which we have only heard from one party. It does not reflect upon the generalized attitudes of workers at any particular venue, location, company nor whether they are publicly, privately or self employed. Details could have been changed to mirror unfortunate customer/staff exchanges in pretty much any industry, anywhere.
I know we would all like to believe the theory that the backgrounds of a segment of a large company's personnel can be identified by their general demeanour today. But most of the above posts are based upon anecdotes. One customers "shining star" is another's "lounge dragon" and vice-versa. Consider the inexorable advance of time, and all the staff turnover, personal life events, corporate restructuring, management changes, industry constraints, seniority, and the evolvement of individuals, the company, the traveling public and indeed the industry. How likely is it that we can neatly categorize shiny happy staff as former CP and miserable old bats as AC?
As for culture, that’s what this whole thread is about - lingering culture, whether it’s that of CP, WD or AC. Once entrenched in an organization the size of AC it is exceedingly difficult to shift. New entry level employees can become culturally indoctrinated by the others within a few months, and it can take years to undo. That is fact, not anecdotal.
You can disagree if you want, but there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the attitude prevalent among many government employees (I get off at 4:30:00. Customers are a nuisance. We insist you do certain things in a certain way because it’s convenient for us, not you) lingers among many AC employees, just as a healthier attitude lingers among ex CP employees.
May 22, 2018, 12:05 am
#39
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And what makes you think it was true?
Wardair existed until 1989. That's less than 30 years ago.
Last edited by tcook052; May 22, 2018 at 5:55 am Reason: merge separate posts
May 22, 2018, 4:55 am
#40
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I'm not sure if it applies in the case of Air Canada/Canadian/WardAir, but I've noticed that quality of service is a pretty good indicator of a local economy. In places with higher unemployment, service tends to be pretty good. In places with lots of good jobs, the service industry will take any warm body.
But FA's aren't there to serve us, they are there for our safety - so this might not apply to the airline industry.
But FA's aren't there to serve us, they are there for our safety - so this might not apply to the airline industry.
May 22, 2018, 5:49 am
#41
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Please note that a number of posts have either been deleted or edited to try and get this topic back on track so let's take another run at doing that.
tcook052
AC forum Mod.
tcook052
AC forum Mod.
Last edited by tcook052; May 22, 2018 at 6:39 am
May 22, 2018, 11:39 pm
#43
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This link to a old thread make for an interesting read, about the integration of the two groups of in-flight staff:
FA seniority feud
I only read a few of the post but what was interesting:
- Canadian in the last few years was focused on winning with a better premium product (that may help define the perception of Canadian among some here).
- Canadian over-staffed in flight while Air Canada matched to loads. Again that results in a more attentive experience.
- Due to financial programs there were lots of layoffs at Canadian. That may be seniority based, however you would expect a focus on letting go of under-performing or less committed team members.
- The two groups did not get along over seniority during the first few years. This was not a happy marriage in the early years. That probably lead to the two groups sticking to their old styles a bit longer than would have been expected.
- Someone in that thread said the Canadian flight attendants were paid better that AC.
I was not flying as much back then but my impression was AC had the nicer aircraft (not a fan of the 737 or the weird regional aircraft Canadian was flying at the tail end) but Canadian had more friendly staff. Could I tell the difference between a legacy AC or Canadian in flight agent today? Probably not.
FA seniority feud
I only read a few of the post but what was interesting:
- Canadian in the last few years was focused on winning with a better premium product (that may help define the perception of Canadian among some here).
- Canadian over-staffed in flight while Air Canada matched to loads. Again that results in a more attentive experience.
- Due to financial programs there were lots of layoffs at Canadian. That may be seniority based, however you would expect a focus on letting go of under-performing or less committed team members.
- The two groups did not get along over seniority during the first few years. This was not a happy marriage in the early years. That probably lead to the two groups sticking to their old styles a bit longer than would have been expected.
- Someone in that thread said the Canadian flight attendants were paid better that AC.
I was not flying as much back then but my impression was AC had the nicer aircraft (not a fan of the 737 or the weird regional aircraft Canadian was flying at the tail end) but Canadian had more friendly staff. Could I tell the difference between a legacy AC or Canadian in flight agent today? Probably not.
May 23, 2018, 1:48 am
#44
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I have once had a crew that was so weird (not "good") that I asked, specifically about WD/CP/AC, and the SD was from WD, and retiring soon.
I say "not good" because she missed me for meal priority.
However, her recovery was stellar. Definitely one of my best flights.
I've had other crews that I'm now wishing I had asked just so I could post in this thread, but I have a hard time believing they were working 30 years ago. It's possible, but they would have been barely high school graduates when they started. And then there's the aforementioned question of whether 3 months at an airline would instill a culture.
Point being, it's hard to imagine.
From my limited experience of a couple hundred mainline flights, I'm willing to say most WD crews are awesome. I'm willing to say many CP crews awesome. I'm certainly not willing to say anything about the awesomeness of "pure" AC crews. Some are better than WD, some are bad enough that I've posted about them.
I say "not good" because she missed me for meal priority.
However, her recovery was stellar. Definitely one of my best flights.
I've had other crews that I'm now wishing I had asked just so I could post in this thread, but I have a hard time believing they were working 30 years ago. It's possible, but they would have been barely high school graduates when they started. And then there's the aforementioned question of whether 3 months at an airline would instill a culture.
Point being, it's hard to imagine.
From my limited experience of a couple hundred mainline flights, I'm willing to say most WD crews are awesome. I'm willing to say many CP crews awesome. I'm certainly not willing to say anything about the awesomeness of "pure" AC crews. Some are better than WD, some are bad enough that I've posted about them.
