Air Canada safety culture sincerely worries me
May 7, 2018, 10:27 pm
#61
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,003
TC has been downloading responsibilties for safety to the operators. This has resulted in SMS programs.
TC may be the regulator and the ultimate authority, but they are rarely ahead of the curve.
May 8, 2018, 6:43 am
#62
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,305
May 8, 2018, 8:31 am
#64
Formerly known as newbie elite
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: YUL
Programs: IHG Diamond Ambassador, Accor Platinum, AC50K
Posts: 2,927
While I'm happy to hear that pilots are getting more technology at their fingertips, the incident details available thus far seem to indicate that lack of awareness, alertness and critical thinking rather than lack of proper instrumentation were involved in this occurrence. Technology may help to mitigate those underlying issues but I would like to know that AC is taking actions to address the human performance issues as well.
May 8, 2018, 10:16 am
#65
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: OGG, YYC
Programs: AA, AC
Posts: 3,697
While I'm happy to hear that pilots are getting more technology at their fingertips, the incident details available thus far seem to indicate that lack of awareness, alertness and critical thinking rather than lack of proper instrumentation were involved in this occurrence. Technology may help to mitigate those underlying issues but I would like to know that AC is taking actions to address the human performance issues as well.
That said, the SFO aircraft was equipped with technology to prevent what happened: the localizer receiver. For whatever reason the crew failed to use it.
May 8, 2018, 10:20 am
#66
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: OGG, YYC
Programs: AA, AC
Posts: 3,697
How does one maintain "hand flying" skills as an A320 pilot? The autopilot is always effectively in control.
May 8, 2018, 12:25 pm
#67
Formerly known as newbie elite
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: YUL
Programs: IHG Diamond Ambassador, Accor Platinum, AC50K
Posts: 2,927
Even on Airbus, there is a way to fly the plane with the stick and autothrottle while flying a visual approach without following the magenta line and the flight director instead of punching in the approach on the FMS and flying the autopilot panel. I understand there is ample middle ground between these two extremes.
Knowing how your plane degrades through the autopilot modes (ŕ la Sully) and understanding direct law falls under this for me, not knowing basic piloting skills combined with automation degradation/task saturation ends up like AF447.
I know who I want in the pointy end. I guess airmanship would be a better term than hand flying.
If I read the AC SFO report correctly, the FO could not even fly a basic pattern during a check ride. He should be fired, not stuck at FO. I don't understand how that happens at AC. I dont want this guy flying my plane and wonder if a more on the ball FO would have reacted faster even as PNF
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29719939-post852.html
Back to the FO, it turns out he did have two chances to pass his final check ride and both check airmen were interviewed as well as others involved in his training. His situational awareness was described as "a disaster" and "abysmal." His first check ride was terminated early when this happened on approach: "5 to 6 miles prior to LEPUX they were cleared to 5000 feet. The incident first officer pulled the altitude knob and dialed in 5000 feet missing the 8,000-foot altitude restriction. He could have saved it if he had pressed the V/S button to level the aircraft. Instead, he set the FCU altitude to 12000 feet and pulled the knob so the aircraft went into open climb and the engines began to spool up. The incident first officer then cranked the FCU altitude knob back to 0. The Airbus engines take a few seconds to go full throttle from idle so he [the check airman] took control of the aircraft."
Prior to that incident, before one of their takeoffs the FO had to be prompted to request additional fuel as there wasn't enough for taxiing. The check airman said it was the most uncomfortable line check he's done.
On his second check ride (after additional training), on one approach he requested a straight in approach, not realizing he was facing the wrong end of the runway. Then when he set up for landing on the correct runway, when asked, he requested a left downwind turn but then turned right instead. He had to be walked through an approach and go around at LGA (these check rides are not meant to be instructional - this is the last step before they start flying the line as a captain). The check airman didn't take control, "but it was close." Since he was going to go back to flying as a FO after his failed upgrade training, the check airman was concerned enough to email the senior flight instructor with some of the details and noted that he should not be paired with a new captain. A couple alarming quotes from the interview: "The danger with that kind of individual is that when you get someone who seems engaged and who has good CRM, but then something happens and the 'lights go out', it could be even more dangerous." "The incident first officer is articulate and has a sense of confidence, 'but when the switch turns, there’s nothing there.'”
One of his simulator instructors said that the FO was the weakest candidate he'd ever passed.
Prior to that incident, before one of their takeoffs the FO had to be prompted to request additional fuel as there wasn't enough for taxiing. The check airman said it was the most uncomfortable line check he's done.
On his second check ride (after additional training), on one approach he requested a straight in approach, not realizing he was facing the wrong end of the runway. Then when he set up for landing on the correct runway, when asked, he requested a left downwind turn but then turned right instead. He had to be walked through an approach and go around at LGA (these check rides are not meant to be instructional - this is the last step before they start flying the line as a captain). The check airman didn't take control, "but it was close." Since he was going to go back to flying as a FO after his failed upgrade training, the check airman was concerned enough to email the senior flight instructor with some of the details and noted that he should not be paired with a new captain. A couple alarming quotes from the interview: "The danger with that kind of individual is that when you get someone who seems engaged and who has good CRM, but then something happens and the 'lights go out', it could be even more dangerous." "The incident first officer is articulate and has a sense of confidence, 'but when the switch turns, there’s nothing there.'”
One of his simulator instructors said that the FO was the weakest candidate he'd ever passed.
Last edited by Admiral Ackbar; May 8, 2018 at 12:43 pm
Jul 14, 2018, 5:08 am
#68
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Air Canada Super Elite 2+ Million Miles
Posts: 2,478
All of this is going to get worse, as there is a rapid retirement of pilots, and the experience levels are dropping.
what caused me to look up this thread was just having landed on THAI B773 CPH-BKK where in business class they use a three point harness belt, which can be detached to two points when sleeping.
safety culture far more than what happens on the line, but goes through every aspect of corporate decision- making and struck me today that THAI just went that step further
what caused me to look up this thread was just having landed on THAI B773 CPH-BKK where in business class they use a three point harness belt, which can be detached to two points when sleeping.
safety culture far more than what happens on the line, but goes through every aspect of corporate decision- making and struck me today that THAI just went that step further
Jul 14, 2018, 7:43 am
#69
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YUL
Programs: AC SE (*A Gold), Bonvoy Platinum Elite, Hilton Gold, Amex Platinum / AP Reserve, NEXUS, Global Entry
Posts: 5,691
Or are you suggesting that the seat manufacturers that use lap belts and the airlines that buy seats using lap belts are somehow lacking adequate “safety culture”?
Jul 14, 2018, 8:36 am
#70
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Air Canada Super Elite 2+ Million Miles
Posts: 2,478
Don’t different seats have different seatbelt designs and requirements? I recall LH F using a similar 3-point harness for take offs and landings, but LH C, PY and Y do not. Surely the “safety culture” of LH is not dependant on one’s cabin class.
Or are you suggesting that the seat manufacturers that use lap belts and the airlines that buy seats using lap belts are somehow lacking adequate “safety culture”?
And I recall when automobile manufacturers made seatbelts an option, and tragically back then we lost a family member For the unavailability of this piece of fabric.
Jul 14, 2018, 9:48 am
#71
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,920
In sum, agree with you should not be based on class - which evidently it is from your example & mine, & yes Somebody at LH and TG in the finance department, based on a recommendation from the purchasing department, authorized the additional expense for this extra piece of equipment, which also has associated lifecycle maintenance and fuel costs for the slight extra weight on board
And I recall when automobile manufacturers made seatbelts an option, and tragically back then we lost a family member For the unavailability of this piece of fabric.
The design of the seat allows the use of a type of seat belt. It is easier to offer the 3 piece with a larger seat. The bench styles now favoured in Y are not conducive to the larger belts. And for the record, I find the AC business class seat belts woefully inadequate. IMO, the airline cut corners as have the other airlines who use a similar style of seat belt.
Jul 14, 2018, 9:58 am
#72
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Air Canada Super Elite 2+ Million Miles
Posts: 2,478
The design of the seat allows the use of a type of seat belt. It is easier to offer the 3 piece with a larger seat. The bench styles now favoured in Y are not conducive to the larger belts. And for the record, I find the AC business class seat belts woefully inadequate. IMO, the airline cut corners as have the other airlines who use a similar style of seat belt.