Kraafish

Reading all the comments before me and I am still shock that OP actually bought a ticket from YYZ-YYC round trip for $6,000!!!

canadiancow

OP never said that.

"I've spent 6K this week alone booking last minute YYZ-YYC R\Ts"

Emphasis on the last letter in that quote. It's plural.

YOWgary

OP mentioned YYZ-YYC, so let's go with that as an example. I'm stuck babysitting a client tonight, so let's kill some time:

One-way YYZ-YYC, leaving tomorrow, $595 in Flex, earning 1673 miles, or $1,675 in Lat, earning 2,091.

50 x 1673 = 83,650.
50 x $885 = $44,250.

50 x 2,091 = 104,550
50 x $1675 = $83,750

So, to get to $60K spent, you're looking at about 30 Flex segments and 20 Latitude.

(30 x 1,673) + (20 x 2,091) = 92,010
(30 x $885) + (20 x $1675) = $60,050


Now, if you look at something like YYZ-HKG, the math gets different. Again, next-day departure, Flex is $1,342 / 7,806 AQM, Latitude is $3,200 / 9757.

So, flying Flex, you're going to hit 100K after $18,788; flying Latitude, you'll hit 100K after $44,800.

TL;DR - It's absolutely possible to spend $60K on Flex/Lat fares within North America, and miss SE by a country mile.

yyzborg

One has to keep in mind situations like this, and say that of other frequent fliers, namely Dorian who pointed out that there's no reason to fly AC > 100,000 miles, that these are fringe scenarios.

Very few people pay $60K on fares within N. America and miss SE. (one would guess). AC has to design a FF model that would change the majority of people's behavior in order to increase profit. Scenarios like this are simply ones that AC hasn't accounted for because it rarely happens.

ac777

Perhaps it us time for AC to accommodate people like OP.
They can enhance the program to have a new status and call it Super SE with the following conditions:
1.Lifetime SE, no flying required
2. Up front payment of $1,000,000.00
3. AC will give them credits worth the same amount to be spent on AC only.
4. Not more than $75,000.00 can be spent on each calender year

Now is this not a great idea for AC to maximize revenue and please people who do not want to fly but want to spend!

For the people who fly they can get the lifetime SE at the usual level.

BlondeBomber

Obviously I am in the wrong thread. I prefer the low segment, high mileage, low spend model (mine). Will end up with 140-150k AQM and just over $20K AQD. Spending $60K and not get SE means you are crazy rich or just crazy!

Remember, AC is trying to change behaviour to get you to spend more with status programs and benefits. If you are already spending the maximum permissable, why would they try to change your behaviour at some cost to them?

YYT82

I am entitled.

I am entitled.

I am entitled.

I am entitled.


Did I say that I am entitled?

(Airlines set the program rules and we all just play by the rules. It ain't fair sometimes, but life isn't fair either.)

acysb87

A few years back ,there was a YULdo at AC corporate.I was one of those folks invited to attend. Segments to qualify for SE was at 150 per year, mileage at 100k(IIRC) , there was no AQD.
The AC staff listened to many of us that were at 100+ segments spending significant dollars(40K back then). AC and AE came back with a change in program, not long after, that I believe was influenced by our discussions .

The OP has an interesting scenario. Revenue/profit always gets my attention.

Adam Smith

I'm still struggling with the math. Even $2600 (a common price for last-minute Latitude YYC-YYZ-YYC, in my experience) is about $0.62 CPM. Are you going to YUL/YOW/LGA a lot?

YOWgary already did the math to debunk this a bit, but you missed a key point of my first post - it's not simply about number of flights, but about competition as well.

Someone who goes to YYZ-HKG can fly AC or CX direct. Add one stop and numerous other options open up, e.g. BR via TPE, UA via ORD, Chinese carriers, etc.

If FFPs aren't about creating incremental value, then what's their purpose?

Someone who does YYZ-HKG return in J 5x per year and earns SE that way (which isn't any, by the way) makes 5 decisions to purchase an expensive AC ticket, which is often more expensive than the competition, and when there are numerous alternatives available - CX direct, BR via TPE, various Chinese airlines, etc.

Giving that person SE status is an incentive to book with AC rather than the competition.

And where's the value in AC giving you SE? You've said you don't fly AC for personal or international travel. If they gave you SE, would you fly more on AC?

Adam Smith

Spend IS a priority. You HAVE to meet the AQD requirements to achieve any status. But you also have to fly a certain amount. It's a frequent flier program.

Wpgjetse

One problem with your math, op only fly's Lat fares a couple of X per year.

Adam Smith

Not sure you understand the cost structure and profitability of airlines or AC.

Shorter segments cost more. There are certain fixed costs in operating a flight - landing fees, check-in and gate agents, cost to market the flight, etc.

Aircraft are most fuel efficient at cruising altitude.

You like to pick on YYZ-HKG, but that's undoubtedly one of AC's lower-cost routes.

Something like YYZ-YUL or YYZ-LGA, on the other hand, is very expensive. Lots of segments for the same amount of mileage, lots of IRROPs, short time at cruise.

With your average segment being about 1000 AQM, probably less once COS bonuses are taken out, you're flying routes that are more costly for AC ro operate.

You're also paying Flex and some Latitude, rather than actually paying for J.

At $1.09 per mile, you're likely still a pretty profitable flyer, but to think you're 5x more profitable than the "average J flyer" is a joke.

cooleddie

The AQD of $20k for Canadians vs. $10k for non Canadians is unjust.

cooleddie

I think what OP is saying is that the program is unjust from a spend perspective. Which I agree with.

YOWgary

There's nothing wrong with the math; I supplied the facts, and a few different combinations of the variables. OP hasn't offered their exact figures, which is why I've played around with a few different combinations. Anyone who reads this forum knows I love me a good math problem.

You confidently asserted that it was impossible to spend $60K on 50 segments of Flex/Lat without hitting SE, and that's just not true.

Considering that OP has told us they fly almost entirely within North America, and that Latitude costs more than Flex per AQM earned, OP would actually get closer to SE on $60,000 worth of Flex fares than on $60,000 worth of Latitude fares. So, in this case, Flex would more closely support your assertion.

So, let's do the math, and assume OP only ever flies Flex, to give you the best possible shot at this:

I hunted around for a couple of popular routes, which should give us a decent picture of the range of last-minute Flex fares. The following are all taken straight from the website, for departure tomorrow.

I chose only direct flights, to give you the benefit of the doubt, since we're working with a 50-segment limit here, and I chose only long flights, again to give you the benefit of the highest possible mileage earning per segment.

YVR-YUL - $667 for low-flex V
YVR-EWR - $605 for low-flex Q
YYC-IAH - $824 for high-flex U, $620 for low-flex Q, call it an average of $720.
YYZ-LAX - $1142 for high-flex M
YYZ-YWG - $740 for high-flex M
YYZ-YYC - $1152 for high-flex M
YUL-YYC - $1222 for high-flex M
YUL-YVR - $1091 for high-flex U


As you say, to hit $60K from 50 segments, you've got to average $1200 per segment, which means we can throw out every one of those low-flex fares, as OP will never reach $60K like that.

In other words, the only way OP can spend $60K on 50 North American segments, without buying many Lat fares, is to buy last-minute on flights that have already completely sold out the low-Flex buckets.

We also have to throw out any flight of under about 1500 miles, otherwise OP will never reach SE on 50 segments, regardless of spend. So, Toronto-Calgary is the about the shortest route we can consider.

So, if you look at that YYZ-LAX flight, and do it 50 times, you're just going to squeak over SE at 108,700 AQM, on a spend of $57,100; that's certainly close enough to $60K for me to count it.

...but if you go back to the YYZ-YYC, which OP has mentioned is a bread-and-butter route, you're earning 83,650 AQM on a spend of $57,600.

Let's say you do half YYZ-YYC and half YUL-YVR; you're spending $64,000 and earning 91,525 miles.

So, to recap:

- No short flights; need to average 2,000 miles/segment to make SE.
- No cheap flights; need to average $1,200/segment to spend $60K.
- No low Flex; 50 long segments hits SE on $30K, which fails this test.
- No connections; else 50 segments = 25 RT fares and only costs ~$30K.

The real problem here is that OP has found a stunningly inefficient way to spend his/her money, at least as far as status-earning flying is concerned.

I'm sure it makes great business sense in terms of putting the right personnel in the right place at the right time, the point is that OP has painted themselves into a corner of poor points earning per spend.