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Low Segment, Low mileage, High spend = Super Elite Please??

Low Segment, Low mileage, High spend = Super Elite Please??

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Old Nov 26, 16, 5:24 pm
  #46  
 
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Reading all the comments before me and I am still shock that OP actually bought a ticket from YYZ-YYC round trip for $6,000!!!
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Old Nov 26, 16, 5:27 pm
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Kraafish View Post
Reading all the comments before me and I am still shock that OP actually bought a ticket from YYZ-YYC round trip for $6,000!!!
OP never said that.

"I've spent 6K this week alone booking last minute YYZ-YYC R\Ts"

Emphasis on the last letter in that quote. It's plural.
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Old Nov 26, 16, 5:31 pm
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Wpgjetse View Post
It's impossible to spend 60K on 50 segments($1200 per segment) and not make SE on flex/Lat fares. Your segments costs don't add up.
OP mentioned YYZ-YYC, so let's go with that as an example. I'm stuck babysitting a client tonight, so let's kill some time:

One-way YYZ-YYC, leaving tomorrow, $595 in Flex, earning 1673 miles, or $1,675 in Lat, earning 2,091.

50 x 1673 = 83,650.
50 x $885 = $44,250.

50 x 2,091 = 104,550
50 x $1675 = $83,750

So, to get to $60K spent, you're looking at about 30 Flex segments and 20 Latitude.

(30 x 1,673) + (20 x 2,091) = 92,010
(30 x $885) + (20 x $1675) = $60,050


Now, if you look at something like YYZ-HKG, the math gets different. Again, next-day departure, Flex is $1,342 / 7,806 AQM, Latitude is $3,200 / 9757.

So, flying Flex, you're going to hit 100K after $18,788; flying Latitude, you'll hit 100K after $44,800.

TL;DR - It's absolutely possible to spend $60K on Flex/Lat fares within North America, and miss SE by a country mile.
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Old Nov 26, 16, 5:40 pm
  #49  
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One has to keep in mind situations like this, and say that of other frequent fliers, namely Dorian who pointed out that there's no reason to fly AC > 100,000 miles, that these are fringe scenarios.

Very few people pay $60K on fares within N. America and miss SE. (one would guess). AC has to design a FF model that would change the majority of people's behavior in order to increase profit. Scenarios like this are simply ones that AC hasn't accounted for because it rarely happens.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 3:18 am
  #50  
 
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Perhaps it us time for AC to accommodate people like OP.
They can enhance the program to have a new status and call it Super SE with the following conditions:
1.Lifetime SE, no flying required
2. Up front payment of $1,000,000.00
3. AC will give them credits worth the same amount to be spent on AC only.
4. Not more than $75,000.00 can be spent on each calender year

Now is this not a great idea for AC to maximize revenue and please people who do not want to fly but want to spend!

For the people who fly they can get the lifetime SE at the usual level.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 5:45 am
  #51  
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Obviously I am in the wrong thread. I prefer the low segment, high mileage, low spend model (mine). Will end up with 140-150k AQM and just over $20K AQD. Spending $60K and not get SE means you are crazy rich or just crazy!

Remember, AC is trying to change behaviour to get you to spend more with status programs and benefits. If you are already spending the maximum permissable, why would they try to change your behaviour at some cost to them?
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Old Nov 27, 16, 5:57 am
  #52  
 
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I am entitled.

I am entitled.

I am entitled.

I am entitled.


Did I say that I am entitled?

(Airlines set the program rules and we all just play by the rules. It ain't fair sometimes, but life isn't fair either.)
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Old Nov 27, 16, 6:53 am
  #53  
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A few years back ,there was a YULdo at AC corporate.I was one of those folks invited to attend. Segments to qualify for SE was at 150 per year, mileage at 100k(IIRC) , there was no AQD.
The AC staff listened to many of us that were at 100+ segments spending significant dollars(40K back then). AC and AE came back with a change in program, not long after, that I believe was influenced by our discussions .

The OP has an interesting scenario. Revenue/profit always gets my attention.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 8:14 am
  #54  
 
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Originally Posted by MaydayMayday View Post
The 6K was for 3 individual trips not 1. Couple of them had no flex fares remaining at the time I wanted so I bought latitude. This is fairly norm for me, I but latitude and higher fare flex quite often out of necessity.
I'm still struggling with the math. Even $2600 (a common price for last-minute Latitude YYC-YYZ-YYC, in my experience) is about $0.62 CPM. Are you going to YUL/YOW/LGA a lot?

I think your point about "You don't fly enough to merit SE status." is incorrect. If that were true then someone who flies YYZ-HKG 5 times a year should also not be SE. But they are....

Are you suggesting that someone who flies 5 times a year is a frequent flyer? It would seem your definition of a frequent flyer is very superfluous.
YOWgary already did the math to debunk this a bit, but you missed a key point of my first post - it's not simply about number of flights, but about competition as well.

Someone who goes to YYZ-HKG can fly AC or CX direct. Add one stop and numerous other options open up, e.g. BR via TPE, UA via ORD, Chinese carriers, etc.

Your point about "incremental value" is also contentious imo. Again, if someone flies long distance 5 times a year, they get SE but what is the incremental value being generated here? They literally only fly 5 times a year. What's AC trying to do? Give them SE so maybe they can fly a couple more times because of the status? Those people have the full flexibility of buying J in any airline they choose. I highly doubt someone who can afford to buy high priced J fares would specifically select AC over other airlines just because they've been given SE status. Those folks would get ultimate priority in any airline they fly...SE or not. So I disagree with this whole "incremental value" assessment. I've stated before I think there is some incremental value to be gained by giving flyers like me SE. Maybe the requirements need to be higher. Let's double the spend of the current SE. Ask me to spend 40K instead of 20K. Fine. At least give me the option...
If FFPs aren't about creating incremental value, then what's their purpose?

Someone who does YYZ-HKG return in J 5x per year and earns SE that way (which isn't any, by the way) makes 5 decisions to purchase an expensive AC ticket, which is often more expensive than the competition, and when there are numerous alternatives available - CX direct, BR via TPE, various Chinese airlines, etc.

Giving that person SE status is an incentive to book with AC rather than the competition.

And where's the value in AC giving you SE? You've said you don't fly AC for personal or international travel. If they gave you SE, would you fly more on AC?
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Old Nov 27, 16, 8:18 am
  #55  
 
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Originally Posted by MaydayMayday View Post
Currently there are 2 ways, one prioritises segments, the other prioritises miles. No option that prioritises spend. I think that should exist.
Spend IS a priority. You HAVE to meet the AQD requirements to achieve any status. But you also have to fly a certain amount. It's a frequent flier program.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 8:22 am
  #56  
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Originally Posted by YOWgary View Post
OP mentioned YYZ-YYC, so let's go with that as an example. I'm stuck babysitting a client tonight, so let's kill some time:

One-way YYZ-YYC, leaving tomorrow, $595 in Flex, earning 1673 miles, or $1,675 in Lat, earning 2,091.

50 x 1673 = 83,650.
50 x $885 = $44,250.

50 x 2,091 = 104,550
50 x $1675 = $83,750

So, to get to $60K spent, you're looking at about 30 Flex segments and 20 Latitude.

(30 x 1,673) + (20 x 2,091) = 92,010
(30 x $885) + (20 x $1675) = $60,050


Now, if you look at something like YYZ-HKG, the math gets different. Again, next-day departure, Flex is $1,342 / 7,806 AQM, Latitude is $3,200 / 9757.

So, flying Flex, you're going to hit 100K after $18,788; flying Latitude, you'll hit 100K after $44,800.

TL;DR - It's absolutely possible to spend $60K on Flex/Lat fares within North America, and miss SE by a country mile.
One problem with your math, op only fly's Lat fares a couple of X per year.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 8:30 am
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by MaydayMayday View Post
Dude you can't do a profitability analysis based on profit / segment

A segment could be 400 miles or 10000 miles. They're not the same

I would argue that I am actually MORE profitable to air canada than your average J flyer

Let's figure out how much I PAID air canada to fly me 1 mile

I;m currently at around 57000 AQD and having flown 52000 miles. Thats $1.09 I paid air canada to fly me 1 mile

Your J flyer did 117000 miles but only paid 22000 for the privilege. He paid AC only 19 cents to fly him 1 mile

I am over 5 times more profitable to AC than your J flyer....
Not sure you understand the cost structure and profitability of airlines or AC.

Shorter segments cost more. There are certain fixed costs in operating a flight - landing fees, check-in and gate agents, cost to market the flight, etc.

Aircraft are most fuel efficient at cruising altitude.

You like to pick on YYZ-HKG, but that's undoubtedly one of AC's lower-cost routes.

Something like YYZ-YUL or YYZ-LGA, on the other hand, is very expensive. Lots of segments for the same amount of mileage, lots of IRROPs, short time at cruise.

With your average segment being about 1000 AQM, probably less once COS bonuses are taken out, you're flying routes that are more costly for AC ro operate.

You're also paying Flex and some Latitude, rather than actually paying for J.

At $1.09 per mile, you're likely still a pretty profitable flyer, but to think you're 5x more profitable than the "average J flyer" is a joke.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 9:05 am
  #58  
 
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The AQD of $20k for Canadians vs. $10k for non Canadians is unjust.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 9:08 am
  #59  
 
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I think what OP is saying is that the program is unjust from a spend perspective. Which I agree with.
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Old Nov 27, 16, 10:24 am
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Wpgjetse View Post
One problem with your math, op only fly's Lat fares a couple of X per year.
There's nothing wrong with the math; I supplied the facts, and a few different combinations of the variables. OP hasn't offered their exact figures, which is why I've played around with a few different combinations. Anyone who reads this forum knows I love me a good math problem.

You confidently asserted that it was impossible to spend $60K on 50 segments of Flex/Lat without hitting SE, and that's just not true.

Considering that OP has told us they fly almost entirely within North America, and that Latitude costs more than Flex per AQM earned, OP would actually get closer to SE on $60,000 worth of Flex fares than on $60,000 worth of Latitude fares. So, in this case, Flex would more closely support your assertion.

So, let's do the math, and assume OP only ever flies Flex, to give you the best possible shot at this:

I hunted around for a couple of popular routes, which should give us a decent picture of the range of last-minute Flex fares. The following are all taken straight from the website, for departure tomorrow.

I chose only direct flights, to give you the benefit of the doubt, since we're working with a 50-segment limit here, and I chose only long flights, again to give you the benefit of the highest possible mileage earning per segment.

YVR-YUL - $667 for low-flex V
YVR-EWR - $605 for low-flex Q
YYC-IAH - $824 for high-flex U, $620 for low-flex Q, call it an average of $720.
YYZ-LAX - $1142 for high-flex M
YYZ-YWG - $740 for high-flex M
YYZ-YYC - $1152 for high-flex M
YUL-YYC - $1222 for high-flex M
YUL-YVR - $1091 for high-flex U


As you say, to hit $60K from 50 segments, you've got to average $1200 per segment, which means we can throw out every one of those low-flex fares, as OP will never reach $60K like that.

In other words, the only way OP can spend $60K on 50 North American segments, without buying many Lat fares, is to buy last-minute on flights that have already completely sold out the low-Flex buckets.

We also have to throw out any flight of under about 1500 miles, otherwise OP will never reach SE on 50 segments, regardless of spend. So, Toronto-Calgary is the about the shortest route we can consider.

So, if you look at that YYZ-LAX flight, and do it 50 times, you're just going to squeak over SE at 108,700 AQM, on a spend of $57,100; that's certainly close enough to $60K for me to count it.

...but if you go back to the YYZ-YYC, which OP has mentioned is a bread-and-butter route, you're earning 83,650 AQM on a spend of $57,600.

Let's say you do half YYZ-YYC and half YUL-YVR; you're spending $64,000 and earning 91,525 miles.

So, to recap:

- No short flights; need to average 2,000 miles/segment to make SE.
- No cheap flights; need to average $1,200/segment to spend $60K.
- No low Flex; 50 long segments hits SE on $30K, which fails this test.
- No connections; else 50 segments = 25 RT fares and only costs ~$30K.

The real problem here is that OP has found a stunningly inefficient way to spend his/her money, at least as far as status-earning flying is concerned.

I'm sure it makes great business sense in terms of putting the right personnel in the right place at the right time, the point is that OP has painted themselves into a corner of poor points earning per spend.
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