rouge killer? The new CP?
Sep 18, 2015, 10:31 pm
#31
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trust me, I want the loyalty program to improve as much as the next guy (or actually probably a lot more). But WestJet isn't exactly known for their loyalty program, so sadly I don't think that's a factor here.
I will agree, that the quality of the product is!
I will agree, that the quality of the product is!
Sep 18, 2015, 10:34 pm
#32
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[QUOTE=The Lev;25445037]Remember AC used to do this with 767 - requires a refueling stop in HNL.
Personally you couldn't pay me enough to go back to doing that vs. non-stop.
QUOTE]
I think you live in Ontario, so you would have flown CP nonstop to HNL on a 767, and made a connection there to go to AKL/SYD/MEL or I think Fiji?
So not sure why we couldn't pay you enough to make the same 1 stop flight, unless you have been denied Nexus?
So with AC poor planning ending CP hub in HNL, now if you didn't want to go to SYD your routing is far worse.
Also flying to HNL from Ontario is much worse, now AC gave up the pacific. So for the vast % of Ontario flyers AC arrangement sucks.
Personally you couldn't pay me enough to go back to doing that vs. non-stop.
QUOTE]
I think you live in Ontario, so you would have flown CP nonstop to HNL on a 767, and made a connection there to go to AKL/SYD/MEL or I think Fiji?
So not sure why we couldn't pay you enough to make the same 1 stop flight, unless you have been denied Nexus?
So with AC poor planning ending CP hub in HNL, now if you didn't want to go to SYD your routing is far worse.
Also flying to HNL from Ontario is much worse, now AC gave up the pacific. So for the vast % of Ontario flyers AC arrangement sucks.
Sep 18, 2015, 10:37 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 2013
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[QUOTE=flybit;25447665]
for an airline that is just starting out with INTL there is nothing wrong with doing a stop.
Also they could market it as a direct flight like WestJet does with YVR - YYZ and then give you a surprise stop in kelowna!
Remember AC used to do this with 767 - requires a refueling stop in HNL.
Personally you couldn't pay me enough to go back to doing that vs. non-stop.
QUOTE]
I think you live in Ontario, so you would have flown CP nonstop to HNL on a 767, and made a connection there to go to AKL/SYD/MEL or I think Fiji?
So not sure why we couldn't pay you enough to make the same 1 stop flight, unless you have been denied Nexus?
So with AC poor planning ending CP hub in HNL, now if you didn't want to go to SYD your routing is far worse.
Also flying to HNL from Ontario is much worse, now AC gave up the pacific. So for the vast % of Ontario flyers AC arrangement sucks.
Personally you couldn't pay me enough to go back to doing that vs. non-stop.
QUOTE]
I think you live in Ontario, so you would have flown CP nonstop to HNL on a 767, and made a connection there to go to AKL/SYD/MEL or I think Fiji?
So not sure why we couldn't pay you enough to make the same 1 stop flight, unless you have been denied Nexus?
So with AC poor planning ending CP hub in HNL, now if you didn't want to go to SYD your routing is far worse.
Also flying to HNL from Ontario is much worse, now AC gave up the pacific. So for the vast % of Ontario flyers AC arrangement sucks.
Also they could market it as a direct flight like WestJet does with YVR - YYZ and then give you a surprise stop in kelowna!
Sep 18, 2015, 10:39 pm
#34
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I recall when AC used to offer Double EQM on PD routes. Doesn't cost much to start that up again!
Sep 18, 2015, 11:05 pm
#35
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If WS were to fly YYZ-HNL and HNL-SYD, that might be interesting depending on flight times - but frankly that's likely many years away (if ever). By that time WS would likely have switched to 787's like AC and could do YVR-SYD non-stop.
Sep 18, 2015, 11:10 pm
#36
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[QUOTE=Sean Peever;25447673]
Ohhhh free wine tasting in YLW! 
Sep 19, 2015, 2:37 am
#37
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I don't think Westjets 4 767 are going to effect AC's loads, profits and routes. It sounds like Westjet plains to run their 767 hard over the summer and when aircraft problems come up, Westjets routes will be effected a lot.
Sep 19, 2015, 4:19 am
#38
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Dorian, I'm confused. WS is taking delivery of 767-300ERs. Rouge flies 767-300ERs, so no savings there on plane cost/fuel burn. If it wants to match like-for-like, AC can just throw Rouge 763s up against WS, like it's doing on YYC-LGW.
Fuel is the biggest single expense for airlines, even with lower oil prices. It's a much larger expense than aircraft rent/depreciation.
So it's quite possible that a 787 is competitive with a 767 because the higher purchase price (which will be amortised over many years of remaining life, whereas the 767s don't have much left in them) will be offset by lower fuel burn.
I would also guess that the maintenance expense starts to pile up on these old 767s as things just start to wear out and fall apart.
So I don't necessarily see WS having much of a cost advantage over AC just because of old, cheap 763s.
Also, for what it's worth, the 763 doesn't have the range to do YVR-SYD without a stop (roughly: YVR-SYD 12,500 km, 763 range 11,000 km).
Fuel is the biggest single expense for airlines, even with lower oil prices. It's a much larger expense than aircraft rent/depreciation.
So it's quite possible that a 787 is competitive with a 767 because the higher purchase price (which will be amortised over many years of remaining life, whereas the 767s don't have much left in them) will be offset by lower fuel burn.
I would also guess that the maintenance expense starts to pile up on these old 767s as things just start to wear out and fall apart.
So I don't necessarily see WS having much of a cost advantage over AC just because of old, cheap 763s.
Also, for what it's worth, the 763 doesn't have the range to do YVR-SYD without a stop (roughly: YVR-SYD 12,500 km, 763 range 11,000 km).
For more than 15 years one of the constants of this forum have been the claims that:
a) WestJet would never offer IFE, fly outside of North America, use anything but ancient, inefficient 737s, offer any sort of boarding priority, offer any sort of FF plan, offer any sort of premium flight experience, offer lounge access, interline or or or...
b) each new initiative undertaken by WS was a huge mistake that would jeopardize their future or even their very existence,
c) they'd never make it (whatever it was) work,
d) and so on.
Yet in almost every quarter they continue to show real profits, pay dividends, grow slowly but steadily and operate at least as smoothly and reliably as any major carrier.
Betting against them doesn't seem particularly wise.
Last edited by KenHamer; Sep 19, 2015 at 4:26 am
Sep 19, 2015, 5:13 am
#39
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Funny the new naysayers say west jet will be running its planes to hard.
Sep 19, 2015, 5:15 am
#40
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You're right, just 4 planes themselves won't have a earth shattering impact on AC. But I can guarantee you that just 4 planes is not WestJet's end goal either. This is proof of concept for them, and if they do prove the concept (and more important the profitability) then they will start to expand into AC's current routes.
Sep 19, 2015, 5:16 am
#41
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For more than 15 years one of the constants of this forum have been the claims that:
...
Yet in almost every quarter they continue to show real profits, pay dividends, grow slowly but steadily and operate at least as smoothly and reliably as any major carrier.
Betting against them doesn't seem particularly wise.
...
Yet in almost every quarter they continue to show real profits, pay dividends, grow slowly but steadily and operate at least as smoothly and reliably as any major carrier.
Betting against them doesn't seem particularly wise.
They're very slow and deliberate in everything they do, studying things closely before making any moves to minimise the risk.
I actually think they're more likely than not to succeed, and even if Europe doesn't work out, they may be able to use the 767s within their existing network, or they can just cancel the leases or sub-lease them back out to someone else without a big penalty.
If it does work, I expect that they'll continue to move slowly, gradually adding a few destinations in Europe, before they try to go to Asia.
Sep 19, 2015, 5:23 am
#42
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Actually I used to have to fly YYZ-YVR-HNL-SYD (and then often SYD-BNE). I also have NEXUS. At the time I was doing the flights there was no YYZ-HNL flight, so I was stuck with three segments, none of which was really long enough to get a good sleep.
If WS were to fly YYZ-HNL and HNL-SYD, that might be interesting depending on flight times - but frankly that's likely many years away (if ever). By that time WS would likely have switched to 787's like AC and could do YVR-SYD non-stop.
If WS were to fly YYZ-HNL and HNL-SYD, that might be interesting depending on flight times - but frankly that's likely many years away (if ever). By that time WS would likely have switched to 787's like AC and could do YVR-SYD non-stop.
Sep 19, 2015, 8:41 am
#43
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I have always overnighted at YYZ for the next morning cnx to BGI. Adding a stop at YUL is no big deal A J A319 mainline is better than a J Rouge 763.
I have yet to see a Rouge flight to YUL when at BGI, although it could have happened
Sep 19, 2015, 9:28 am
#45
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 5,813
Or neither while focusing on keeping costs as low as possible to protect margins while chasing price sensitive passengers
Lots of cheap TATL flying ahead exCanada ... Which airline is best equipped to deal with that? Sure ain't TS. And it's not WS.
Betting against AC/ACr is not sharp money.