We have seen this elsewhere earlier.

Still, isn't it somewhat of a bad taste to compare concentration camps and an FF program?

In which case the easy response would surely be... don't buy it?

You are correct but everything a Flex fare offers (except AQM and upgrades) can be purchased a la carte on a Tango fare three times over for less than the fare difference. I can buy a Tango fare, pay for a checked bag, pay for a preferred seat, BoB credit, buy a pass to a PP lounge, change my ticket and STILL not have spent more than a Flex ticket.

There is one serious valuable proposition for Flex: pay 1.5-2x economy fare, eUp and get a business seat that would have cost 5-6x.

And just to be clear, I don't have a problem with this. AC makes it clear what you're getting with each fare class and there is no deception. If FFs are willing to pay a big premium to use their eUps, well, such is life.

I just want to point out that Flex is a ridiculous and puzzling non-product to the 99.95% of AC customers who do not have status.

Sir, your logic is totally sound but it is based on incorrect information.

Domestic change fees
Tango $75 (anytime), $150 (SDC)
Flex $50 (anytime), $75 (SDC)

Transborder
Tango $200 (anytime), $150 (SDC)
Flex $200 (anytime), $75 (SDC)

Sun destinations
Tango $75 (anytime), $75 (SDC)
Flex $75 (anytime), $75 (SDC)

International varies by destination of course, but I'm going to cherry pick a route I fly as an example.


It's all right here: http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelin...ifiedfare.html

So with due respect, I don't know where you got the idea that Tango has drastically higher change fees, but it's just not true.

This issue is raised every so often and I have decided that if AC thinks the Flex vs Tango fare differential is worth it - all the more power to them. IMHO, it isn't and I would fly WS to my destination at their seat sale fare than pay 50% or 80% more to fly AC, speaking domestically where I find the spread is much more pronounced (along with Asia routes, but that's a whole different 'kettle of fish' on FT).

I am happy to keep playing the increasingly frustrating 'game' of selecting partial-earning or full-earning status miles with AC and Star Alliance carriers, but the spread has to be reasonable, otherwise not gonna happen.

That is the easy response when people are spending their own money. I would hazard a guess that 95% or more of people buying domestic Flex fares are spending someone else's money (i.e. their employer's or customer's). AC counts on that fact to cloud what would otherwise normally be a slam dunk decision to buy Tango.

It leaves the corporate management types to make a difficult choice:

1. Do I trust my employees to "do the right thing" and only buy Flex when the difference is "reasonable" (whatever that means)?
2. Do I create some sort of matrix of "allowed" cost difference between Tango and Flex and trust my employees not to game the system?
3. Do I make life "simple" and mandate Tango?

The wider the gap, the more tempting it becomes for managers to simply throw up their hands in disgust and choose option 3. That is the longer term risk AC faces.

Your explanation is largely correct, but your timeline is wrong.

As you say, AC used to discount Flex and Tango fares when they had seat sales. That changed several years ago (I'm thinking around 2010) - long before WS implemented fare buckets. Now when AC has a seat sale (as they did up until June 26th), they discount Tango fares only, while retaining "price integrity" on Flex and Latitude.

The result is these "ridiculous" discrepancies between Flex and Tango whenever there is a seat sale.

Depending on the route, AC either keeps Tango open or zeroes it out a certain number of days prior to departure. Of late it seems they keep Tango open on more routes.

I am a strong believer in:

1. I should not spend more if my employer pays than if I pay out of my own pocket; but

2. I ought not to be treated worse by my employer than I would treat myself. Thus I have every right to expect my employer to pay what I would pay out of my own pocket.

I must say point no. 2 fails more often that 1...

OTOH whenever I have control, I will do my best for point 2 to be satisfied. Without being worried by ethical issues. Should be a two way lane.

+1

Anyone using this analogy to highlight changes to the Altitude program or referring to the 77P as slave ships needs to read a little history and get some perspective.

As I said when I posted a nearly identical joke a couple of months ago, Niemöller was making a wider point about the need for solidarity in society, not just talking about the Holocaust.

No one is saying AC is trying to exterminate or enslave FFs. For perspective, I suggest you read up on the concept of dark humour.

As to the original point of this thread, why are we even still talking about this? AC offers a variety of different flavours of its service. The gap between the different buckets often exceeds what some people are willing to pay. This is why they have different categories. If you don't see value in a higher cateory, don't buy it.

Sometimes the gaps get silly - last week I went to IAH and was able to buy P for less than Flex, for instance, or the example quoted by the OP where the Tango fare was on sale and Flex wasn't. But it's nothing new.

I think AC could learn a lot from DL in terms of pricing for a "premium product" (if one can even consider Flex that).

One of my regular routes on DL is $136.10 (Y); or $185.00 (J). For about $50 more, you get a J seat, two free bags, free drinks and small snacks. Now the flight is only 90 minutes (plus a good 30 or 40 minutes of delay waiting for takeoff because it involves NYC) - but the point is you don't feel ripped off at paying $50 for all the stuff they give you.

Edit: Not to mention priority check-in, priority security line, priority boarding, and priority tags on bag.

Flex gives you a pittance for a much larger price increase.

i really love all the status chasers who are attempting to justify putting the difference to their employers and justifying "flex" as if the corporate travel desks are stupid. :rolleyes:

I'm just going to ask the (hopefully) obvious question here.

Between YVR and YYZ (prime example for the tango / flex thing) there has been a pretty large difference for at least the last 2 years - it started pretty low when tango+ came out and climbed from there.

I haven't actually noticed (except for of course tango sales) any large increases in the last couple years in the difference between the two.

Hopefully obvious question: Would AC not have changed this 1 year and 11 months ago if it wasn't selling? Like seriously, if the price went so high that the increase in price lead to an overall drop in profit, would they not have immediately pulled the plug the increase and went back down? The fact that there is such a difference between them, but more importantly the fact that it has stayed like that for a couple years, tells me that it must be selling.

Also: re corporate travel. A number of companies are required to buy flex with their agreement but in return they get a heavy discount on their flex so it's not as crazy on the backend with the kickback.

Why is flex so much more?

Its a business heavy route with people who have status. They buy flex, which means AC can raise the price. Most routes with a lot of business travelers is like this, especially domestic. They probably sell a ton of Flex fares to people who want to upgrade or keep status. Until that changes, don't expect the prices to get closer.

Thank you. I was getting sick and tired of reading self-centred SEs not giving much concern about how Ps and Es have been stripped of benefits and ability to earn status due to reduced earnings on Tango fares, particularly when they got that status on their company's tab. If we don't care about those on the lowest ranks of our society, then the things we take for granted are slowly eroded from all of us.

As to the point at hand, I stand by more earlier post. At the moment, Tango fares have been further discounted so the differential is much greater than would be the case on the "normal" Tango pricing. Flex fares only get discounted with codes and stay pretty fixed, as do Latitude. However, as others have pointed out, Business discount fares also go through discounting and thus can illogically end up being cheaper than some economy fares, though of course come with more restrictions and less benefits.

Another way of thinking of this is that we're comparing Tango benefits with Flex when making our decisions, while AC is comparing Tango income with an empty seat (if people booked Westjet, or decided not to fly).

Kinda like how every August you can buy patio furniture for almost nothing. Compared to that, indoor furniture seems ridiculously expensive.