@com

As a medium sized business owner, myself and my partner allow each other to travel J class on flights over 2 hours. All other executives travel Y. We used to pay for 'upgraded' travel on Royal (their larger seat) until that no longer became possible.

Who else gets their company to pay for Business/J Class tickets: Domestic and or International?

back seat

I work for a medium sized company (about 40 employees) and the new rule is that ALL employees, including the CEO, VP, etc, must fly the lowest cost possible, meaning lots of West Jet, Southwest, Tango etc.
In 2001 though senior management used to fly AC and in paid J class. With all the service cuts (i.e. meals, lounges) they view air travel as nothing more than a commodity and simply look for the lowest price. All of our flying is domestic.

I can't remember the last time an employee at our company flew AC mainline since most of our travel is booked within 7 days.

I wonder who flies AC mainline now? I see lots of business people on Tango - especially since Aeroplan is broken . .. .

ProudEdmontonian

Ha, ha, ha, ha...!

Admiral Ackbar

I work at a large (80000+ employees worldwide) french Bank. J is authorized for any travel over 3 hours, and to specific destinations such as africa, Middle East and Russia.

I think for the New York office, anything under 4 hours is Y, above is J.

FlyTooOften

My employer allows me to fly J on long haul, but often I choose not to. Given that I have a budget to manage, there's often not enough difference in service to justify the cost.

Fully paid J class travel is rapidly becoming a dinosaur. It has nothing to do with the economy, and people (me included) are certainly willing to pay for service, comfort, etc. Rather, it's the fact that the difference between the prices on the 'new' discounters and traditional J class is impossible to justify.

I'd easily and happily pay triple a Tango or Westjet fare if it got me more room, more comfort, and a meal. But the only option (today) is full J class -- which normally costs 8 to 10 times the amount of a discount ticket. Or you can pay full Y class fares on a traditional full service airline, and get little (if anything) more than if you'd flown on a discounter for a fraction of the price.

I've flown Midwest Express a few times. They are a single class carrier: essentially all business class. I paid far less than the traditional J class fare that the other airlines charge (but far more than the discounters charge) and loved it. I'd fly them in an instant, if only they weren't stuck with a hub in such a bad location.

Similarly, I've tried JetBlue from Buffalo a couple of times. Better aircraft and (frankly) similar service to full service AC's Economy class, but a whole lot less money than AC's full fare Y ticket. Too bad it requires a drive to Buffalo.

AC (and some of the U.S. carriers) are really misreading the market when they think that the entire world wants to fly no frills/no service.

To continue the hotel analogy from another thread--
If that was the case, why do people stay in Westins and Fairmonts? And why isn't Motel 6 booming?? Air Canada is transforming itself into a 'Motel 6' airline. They think they're meeting market demand, because demand for their J class is down. Well, demand for hotel rooms at Westin and Fairmont would be down substantially, too, if they charged ten times what their discount competition did. Their hotels are packed, though, when they charge four or five times what their discount competition does (and when they can clearly differentiate the product).

The problem in the airline industry today is not that people won't pay for service and comfort. Rather, the problem is with how traditional airlines price their enhanced services. Old style J class will no longer be the cash cow for airlines that it once was. If they want to attract fliers to premium product, they'll have to actually price it competitively now. Traditional airlines who try to turn themselves into a discounter lookalike just won't be able to compete w Southwest, Westjet. They'll need a fairly priced (i.e. not J fares or full Y fares) higher end product if they are to survive!

BlondeBomber

I think that is exactly right. I will (and continue) to pay out of my own pocket for first and business class flights when the price differential is reasonable. Case in point. RT fare in full econo from HKG to BJS on Air China is about $880 CAD for a 3.5 hour flight. For just $600 more you can go in First and for $300 more you can go in Business RT. I tried First on the way up and Business on the way back. My client will not pay for this but I appreciated the extra comfort and being first off the plane for tight connections.

Similarly, there are value priced flights to places like Mexico and Hawaii in Business/First Class and I generally will book those over economy.

Space/comfort is my first consideration for longer flights. Meals, inflight entertainment and service are secondary but expected to be of good quality as the price rises inordinately.

back seat

Exactly!!! Milton has talked about adopting the Marriott Strategy of hotels - Marriott Full Service, Courtyard, Residence Inn and Fairfield. It is clear to see the differences and the quality levels. It is easy to see the difference between a Motel 6 and a Marriott, but I can't see the difference between AC mainline and Tango. As I have asked before - what was AC thinking when they introduced that Burrito thing they serve in the back. plus the way it is served. . . .

Cloud Lounger

Starting in October, Federal government employees can travel in business class only on international flights if flying time is over nine hours. (the current rule is 12 hours). All flights in North America are restricted to Y. Ministers, deputy ministers, Parliamentarians, diplomatic couriers and escort officers have discretion. First Class not allowed except in exceptional circumstances.

FlyTooOften

The Air Canada take on the "Marriott family of hotels" idea seems to be:

Fairfield Mainline Inn: small room, limited service, huge range of prices for identical rooms

Fairfield Tango Inn: small room, limited service, low price, mini bar

Fairfield Zip Inn: small room, limited service, essentially same price as Mainline Inn and Tango Inn, mini bar. Hotel painted pink.

Fairfield Executive Class Inn: not much different than Mainline Inn, except that you get a 'Queen sized' seat instead of a cot. Price: 10 times that of the Mainline Inn.

Standard at each brand: indifferent service, and a loyalty program with points that you can't use.

Sadly, the AC family of brands does not contain a single comfortable, upscale "Renaissance" or "JW Marriott" ... no enhanced service 'hotels' (at least none that are fairly priced for what you receive!). And there's really no way that they can justify their "Fairfield Executive Class Inn" prices in today's market!



[This message has been edited by FlyTooOften (edited 08-21-2002).]

NeverAtHome

Not only do I not fly J, but I also fly on Sundays and Thursday evenings to avoid sucking up work time. But I essentially commute from YYC to IAD on a biweekly basis so it's a little different for me. I've gotten fares for as low as $299USD versus the $2K+ USD to sit up front - no way my employer would cover that on a regular basis!

Managed to "sneak" a few C fares 2 years ago when it was a different world, but now it's strictly Q fares.

But at least UA let's me upgrade those cheap fares whereas I, like others here, have been papering my bathroom wall with useless AC certs.

mcott

Actually for federal govt employees, it's been 9 hours (connecting or direct) for a while now. I have a friend at CIDA who goes to asia often and always travels J. At my job we can take whatever we want or can negotiate with the airline.

MC

Tractor Boy

This is the issue exactly. BA's World Traveller Plus is one attempt (albeit not perfect) to address this issue - charge a reasonable premium over economy fares for an extra 6" of seat pitch. We need to see similar ideas in redefining J for the domestic market. As a business owner, I'd happily pay a premium for AC J - but not 10 times what I can buy a discount ticket for.

ALW

FlyTooOften,

kpalle

I work for a major Canadian bank, and our policy is a little fuzzy. For domestic flights, <4.5 hours is Y, >4.5 hours is J, however if you're not at an MD level, you will never get permission to fly J.

So really, we're stuck in Y all the time, even when flying from NYC to SFO. The catch is that we must fly on refundable fares, because plans change so often.

MD's and above have discretion to fly in J.

Internationally, our policy allows all employees who have flights >6 hours to fly in J.

For the record, the only J flying i've done has been on my own dime, or when the upgrade/oversold gods have smiled on me.

@com

I wonder what some of the Crown Corporations policies are: Canada Post, CBC etc.
I agree that 10x the cost of a discount ticket is hard to justify, but one also has to take into account the lost effective work time. Sitting in cattle class does not allow one any ability to truly work efficiently or comfortably.

Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by @com (edited 08-21-2002).]