TO Star article Validates!
Mar 12, 2014 | 1:50 am
#16
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: YKF
Programs: AC Elite 50K, Amex AP Plat, Choice Privileges, National Exec Elite, Via Prefrence
Posts: 2,996
PreferJ - I don't disagree with you, but it's also a case of reasonable expectations, and a realization that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I just pretended I was an infrequent traveller who had painfully scrabbled together 100k miles for 4 tickets for a family vacation to Orlando, or 60k for a dream visit to Paris. I chose a random but specific Sat outbound this coming July and a Sun return one week later.
I had no trouble finding a single Classic award ticket (no IKK) to Paris for 60k points + about $600 in fees. Ouch! But versus a cash fare of $1386 that's still a value of 1.3c/mile.
I could only get 3 Classic award tickets on a single Orlando routing for 25k+$178 each, but could supplement with a (nonDistinction) Market Price ticket for 37k+$115. The cash fare is about $1000 each, for an average value of about 3c/mile.
All of this is anecdotal, and for different dates or destinations might not work. Or if paying cash the tourist might take some inconvenient connections to save a few hundred bucks. However, it does not seem that hard to get a cent or more value per mile -- very much in line with what one would expect if you compare e.g. an Aeroplan credit card (1-1.5 miles per $ spent) vs another rewards card (e.g. 1-2% cash back).
I'm not letting AP off the hook here -- they cheerfully let people believe they can dream about how after a few years of collecting points on their once yearly flights plus credit card spend they'll be able to take their whole family to Australia "for free" on points booked on a whim. It's disingenuous and unfair. But mile collectors owe it to themselves to become reasonably well informed and if they're dreaming of easily available redemptions worth 6-7c/mile whenever they feel like it, perhaps they need a bit of a credulity check -- just like those folks in the US who believed banks would of course lend them insane amounts of money and negligible interest to make a guaranteed killing on an always-rising real estate market!
I just pretended I was an infrequent traveller who had painfully scrabbled together 100k miles for 4 tickets for a family vacation to Orlando, or 60k for a dream visit to Paris. I chose a random but specific Sat outbound this coming July and a Sun return one week later.
I had no trouble finding a single Classic award ticket (no IKK) to Paris for 60k points + about $600 in fees. Ouch! But versus a cash fare of $1386 that's still a value of 1.3c/mile.
I could only get 3 Classic award tickets on a single Orlando routing for 25k+$178 each, but could supplement with a (nonDistinction) Market Price ticket for 37k+$115. The cash fare is about $1000 each, for an average value of about 3c/mile.
All of this is anecdotal, and for different dates or destinations might not work. Or if paying cash the tourist might take some inconvenient connections to save a few hundred bucks. However, it does not seem that hard to get a cent or more value per mile -- very much in line with what one would expect if you compare e.g. an Aeroplan credit card (1-1.5 miles per $ spent) vs another rewards card (e.g. 1-2% cash back).
I'm not letting AP off the hook here -- they cheerfully let people believe they can dream about how after a few years of collecting points on their once yearly flights plus credit card spend they'll be able to take their whole family to Australia "for free" on points booked on a whim. It's disingenuous and unfair. But mile collectors owe it to themselves to become reasonably well informed and if they're dreaming of easily available redemptions worth 6-7c/mile whenever they feel like it, perhaps they need a bit of a credulity check -- just like those folks in the US who believed banks would of course lend them insane amounts of money and negligible interest to make a guaranteed killing on an always-rising real estate market!
The key to maximizing your rewards (in any loyalty program) is understanding the value of a point, and what it can and cannot get you.
If you can't (or won't) understand that, you are far better off with a card that gets you 2% (or more) cashback.
Asymmetrical information ALWAYS benefits the loyalty provider. And the only way to level the playing field is through education. Like FT
Mar 12, 2014 | 2:44 pm
#17
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6,458
Looking back at older posts in the early 2000s, and what people booked with the then required amount of miles is just amazing. 100K for nice mini-rtws, and only a couple hundred dollars for taxes and fees? 
I also echo other people's thoughts on AP: there are parts that work well, and of course, the dreaded scamcharges. I caught myself just as I was about to ask the AP booking agent for the total cost of the scamcharges - I mean, "taxes and fuel surcharges".
I also echo other people's thoughts on AP: there are parts that work well, and of course, the dreaded scamcharges. I caught myself just as I was about to ask the AP booking agent for the total cost of the scamcharges - I mean, "taxes and fuel surcharges".
Mar 12, 2014 | 6:06 pm
#18
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: YKF
Programs: AC Elite 50K, Amex AP Plat, Choice Privileges, National Exec Elite, Via Prefrence
Posts: 2,996
Mar 12, 2014 | 6:31 pm
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Programs: OWEmerald; STARGold; BonvoyPlat; IHGPlat/Amb; HiltonGold; A|ClubPat; AirMilesPlat
Posts: 38,190
The real story is why if you book the same AC flights using US or UA miles, you'll pay half or less for the same flights.
There were none. But back then not only could you get 4 business class tickets anywhere in the system for 150K (and each could be used separately to different destinations), you'd get 7 nights in a suite at a Starwood or Hilton property and a week's luxury car rental!
There were none. But back then not only could you get 4 business class tickets anywhere in the system for 150K (and each could be used separately to different destinations), you'd get 7 nights in a suite at a Starwood or Hilton property and a week's luxury car rental!
Last edited by tcook052; Mar 12, 2014 at 6:41 pm
Mar 13, 2014 | 7:54 pm
#20
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6,458
The real story is why if you book the same AC flights using US or UA miles, you'll pay half or less for the same flights.
There were none. But back then not only could you get 4 business class tickets anywhere in the system for 150K (and each could be used separately to different destinations), you'd get 7 nights in a suite at a Starwood or Hilton property and a week's luxury car rental!
There were none. But back then not only could you get 4 business class tickets anywhere in the system for 150K (and each could be used separately to different destinations), you'd get 7 nights in a suite at a Starwood or Hilton property and a week's luxury car rental!
Mar 27, 2014 | 12:52 pm
#21
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: YVR
Programs: AC*SE MM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 4,654
Some quick math.
YVR - LHR : 09/07 (outbound) - 09/17 (return), in Y.
aircanada.com (Tango) - $1050.48 RT
You'll also net 4710 Aeroplan miles (50% on Tango)
aeroplan.com (Classic Flight) - 60,000 miles + $723.41 taxes
That's $327.07 extra for a revenue flight.
However, for the revenue fare you save 60,000 miles + earn 4710 miles = 64,710 miles
For 63,500 miles you get use that for a $500 Air Canada gift card (or Home Depot, Costco etc).
So the Aeroplan reward comes out to -$172.93
This isn't an issue with Aeroplan, but also Airmiles, Aventura, Avion where they charge YQ in addition to their base program currency. Aventura and Avion let you use points for taxes, but only at 1 cent/point. For the big 5 banks, there are straight travel cashback card - TD First class gives a 1.5% (3.0 - 4.5% on purchases through expedia), BMO World Elite has straight 2%.
YVR - LHR : 09/07 (outbound) - 09/17 (return), in Y.
aircanada.com (Tango) - $1050.48 RT
You'll also net 4710 Aeroplan miles (50% on Tango)
aeroplan.com (Classic Flight) - 60,000 miles + $723.41 taxes
That's $327.07 extra for a revenue flight.
However, for the revenue fare you save 60,000 miles + earn 4710 miles = 64,710 miles
For 63,500 miles you get use that for a $500 Air Canada gift card (or Home Depot, Costco etc).
So the Aeroplan reward comes out to -$172.93
This isn't an issue with Aeroplan, but also Airmiles, Aventura, Avion where they charge YQ in addition to their base program currency. Aventura and Avion let you use points for taxes, but only at 1 cent/point. For the big 5 banks, there are straight travel cashback card - TD First class gives a 1.5% (3.0 - 4.5% on purchases through expedia), BMO World Elite has straight 2%.
Mar 27, 2014 | 1:43 pm
#22
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: YYZ
Posts: 182
That BMO card seems too good to be true - sign up with first year free, $300 bonus. Spend that bonus right away and then cancel the card. What's the catch?
I have the Capital One Aspire Travel World Mastercard, also 2% in travel points and an effective annual fee of just $20 thanks to an anniversary points bonus.
I have the Capital One Aspire Travel World Mastercard, also 2% in travel points and an effective annual fee of just $20 thanks to an anniversary points bonus.
Mar 27, 2014 | 2:18 pm
#23
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YVR to SEA
Posts: 2,685
With BMO World Elite is basically a more flexible version of the Aspire with 4 lounge passes, but without the annual bonus.
Nothing stopping you from applying and then cancelling, that happens with many cards (TD/CIBC/Amex Aeroplan etc)
Nothing stopping you from applying and then cancelling, that happens with many cards (TD/CIBC/Amex Aeroplan etc)
Mar 27, 2014 | 2:56 pm
#24
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: YYZ
Posts: 182
I guess I can see just how much I can abuse my credit...
Oct 11, 2014 | 7:54 pm
#26
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 53
Who cares if there is no seat, no seat and no seat?
Rules are irrelevant. Ease of access to seats is most important. Even if Aeroplan is to change the rule to allow 6 stops but does not negotiate with AC to get more seats for redemption, it's moot if you cannot find the space.
Rules are irrelevant. Ease of access to seats is most important. Even if Aeroplan is to change the rule to allow 6 stops but does not negotiate with AC to get more seats for redemption, it's moot if you cannot find the space.
Oct 11, 2014 | 8:37 pm
#27
Formerly known as newbie elite
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,517
Which once again, diminishes the value of the program for the average consumer. The average consumer shouldn't have to learn the ins and outs.
And to the person worried about their credit rating, I (and many others here) have applied (with my spouse) to about 10 different cards in the past year. Unless you have horrid credit I wouldn't worry about it at all.
And who cares if you get the BMO world elite for the 300$ credit and cancel 6 months later. Exactly what I did, not like any bank cares about you in any way, why should you?
Oct 12, 2014 | 8:04 am
#28
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL AC*E50
Posts: 23,584
Points are so easily manufactured in Canada, that its not really a frequent flyer programs. Non-flyers can accumulate thousands of points a year at virtually no cost.
All FFPs charge surcharges on award tickets - even AA and DL on some partners. The lone holdouts seem to be LifeMiles and UA.
Its always good however for the media to expose the scam that Air Canada has going by collecting fake taxes and "fuel" surcharges, and expose the issue to the average flyer who dreams of going to Paris once in a lifetime.
You do need a PhD in Aeorplan nowadays to get any decent value out of it - but its out there.
“This has been the case ever since the last period of record fuel prices in 2008,” said Poole.
Except that AC has been charging surcharges on their metal since at least 2006
Oct 12, 2014 | 10:23 am
#29
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: YVR
Programs: OZ Diamond, Jiffypark Manhattan Gold
Posts: 4,784
I've been accumulating points with the idea that I'd use them one day when I'm a bit more broke or find myself with an extended period of time off. I'm a novice user at best though, I try following along with you guys and can't replicate what you do but I can get maybe half way haha. That said I'm not the nave fool that goes "well I wanna go to CDG and it says it's 65,000 + $800, so I'd better just suck it up and pay". No research? No reading of even the not that fine print? You're gonna get jobbed a bit.
That said, let's say hypothetically either all those users started being a little more FTesque OR they just stopped booking anything with an AC leg to avoid charges. What do you think would happen? Would the availability of seats plummet, while AC seats would remain at whatever level they are or higher, thus kinda forcing you into them?
I know earn and burn is probably a better idea, but I don't really see myself earning for that long either so I'm not lifetime hoarding, so I think hanging on to them for a little while at least won't hurt me too much.
That said, let's say hypothetically either all those users started being a little more FTesque OR they just stopped booking anything with an AC leg to avoid charges. What do you think would happen? Would the availability of seats plummet, while AC seats would remain at whatever level they are or higher, thus kinda forcing you into them?
I know earn and burn is probably a better idea, but I don't really see myself earning for that long either so I'm not lifetime hoarding, so I think hanging on to them for a little while at least won't hurt me too much.
Oct 12, 2014 | 10:40 am
#30
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
I've been accumulating points with the idea that I'd use them one day when I'm a bit more broke or find myself with an extended period of time off. I'm a novice user at best though, I try following along with you guys and can't replicate what you do but I can get maybe half way haha. That said I'm not the nave fool that goes "well I wanna go to CDG and it says it's 65,000 + $800, so I'd better just suck it up and pay". No research? No reading of even the not that fine print? You're gonna get jobbed a bit.
That said, let's say hypothetically either all those users started being a little more FTesque OR they just stopped booking anything with an AC leg to avoid charges. What do you think would happen? Would the availability of seats plummet, while AC seats would remain at whatever level they are or higher, thus kinda forcing you into them?
I know earn and burn is probably a better idea, but I don't really see myself earning for that long either so I'm not lifetime hoarding, so I think hanging on to them for a little while at least won't hurt me too much.
That said, let's say hypothetically either all those users started being a little more FTesque OR they just stopped booking anything with an AC leg to avoid charges. What do you think would happen? Would the availability of seats plummet, while AC seats would remain at whatever level they are or higher, thus kinda forcing you into them?
I know earn and burn is probably a better idea, but I don't really see myself earning for that long either so I'm not lifetime hoarding, so I think hanging on to them for a little while at least won't hurt me too much.
+1
Right now the miles we earn are not bananas, i.e., they are not "going bad" or have an expiry date. In the beginning, no one had expiries on them. Then airlines started adding expiries. Then people with either 5 miles or 5 million miles started panicking that they would lose them and so there might have been a bit of a rush to earn and burn. Then airlines saw the light of day and got rid of the expiries.
Everyone has their own ideas of what they would like to do. Sure, the old days were nice where you could use what you worked hard to earn, to get a ticket on those saved miles. But then fee-creep set in. Now, as we know, the fees added to a miles/points ticket can often be almost the same as buying a Tango or Flex.
I don't see any carrier who charges fees on these tickets to change that policy anytime soon. So we either have to plan way in advance to get the seats plus plan the route to keep these charges to a minimum if zero is not possible.