"Free" J class YYZ-LHR tickets cost $1136
Apr 30, 2013, 3:44 pm
#32
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: YYG
Programs: airlines and hotels and rental cars - oh my!
Posts: 2,997
Aeroplan's Scamcharges are a complete slap in the face. It's one of many reasons I bailed last year. Screw status. This year, I'm flying as much as ever, but paying approximately one third less!!! Even if I pay out-of-pocket for my annual vacation flights (as I just did, for a summer trip to Europe) it still comes out less than it did to pay the surcharges on my Aeroplan redemptions.
Apr 30, 2013, 4:12 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: YUL
Programs: Various airline, hotel and credit card programs
Posts: 1,903
Apr 30, 2013, 4:53 pm
#34
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, AC MM E75, Marriott LT Ti, IHG Dia Amb, Hyatt Glob
Posts: 15,521
I have SE status, and accidentally got UA 1K status as well last year. (I flew close to 300K revenue miles last year and decided to not put all my eggs in one basket.) Lucky me after the latest round of enhancements announced in Oct 2012!
OP, just so you fully grasp how much AC is ripping you off (sorry but there is no other way to say it), I did a quick search on UA. I have no idea what your travel dates are so I just picked 2 days where there was availability on AC in J class.
Oct 15 AC856 YYZ-LHR
Oct 19 AC869 LHR-YYZ
To book this ticket would cost you 100K Mileage Plus miles + $318.60. And as you've noted earlier, most of this amount is because of LHR's exorbitant fees. So do you think UA is absorbing the extra $800 that AE wants to charge you or do you think those fuel surcharges are something AC dreamed up to pad the bottom line?
I will really miss AC but I've had enough of them sticking their hand in my wallet. I am neither wealthy nor on an expense account, which is why this will be my last year as SE. Sniff.
OP, just so you fully grasp how much AC is ripping you off (sorry but there is no other way to say it), I did a quick search on UA. I have no idea what your travel dates are so I just picked 2 days where there was availability on AC in J class.
Oct 15 AC856 YYZ-LHR
Oct 19 AC869 LHR-YYZ
To book this ticket would cost you 100K Mileage Plus miles + $318.60. And as you've noted earlier, most of this amount is because of LHR's exorbitant fees. So do you think UA is absorbing the extra $800 that AE wants to charge you or do you think those fuel surcharges are something AC dreamed up to pad the bottom line?
I will really miss AC but I've had enough of them sticking their hand in my wallet. I am neither wealthy nor on an expense account, which is why this will be my last year as SE. Sniff.
Apr 30, 2013, 6:02 pm
#35
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: YVR - Vancouver, with most winter weekends in Whistler.
Programs: Aeroplan 35K, Alaska MVP, Marriott Titanium / Lifetime Platinum, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 4,609
The best advice that can be given to the original poster is to
1. Get the word out that this program is a co-pay program, in hopes that some type of pressure will reduce the additional charges.
2. Change flights to avoid the fuel surcharges.
1. Get the word out that this program is a co-pay program, in hopes that some type of pressure will reduce the additional charges.
2. Change flights to avoid the fuel surcharges.
Apr 30, 2013, 6:25 pm
#36
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,920
The surcharges are a boon to the airlines in countries that do not have consumer protection laws that target deceptive sales practices and/or the enforcement of such laws. How long did it take the airline industry in Canada to implement transparent fares? Remember how the airlines had to be forced to stop advertising lowball airfares that actually sold for much higher once all the charges and taxes were added?
There are a few reasons IMO why the airlines may engage in the practice;
1. Taxation. There appears to be some tax benefit to how surcharges are allocated and what exactly is taxable as income vs. expense recapture.
(Remember the complaints in the USA about luggage surcharges and how the airlines were relying on all of these charges that were not taxable?)
2. It allows the airlines to circumvent some of the previously discounted fares that have been offered to bulk purchasers. Fuel surcharges were usually not subject to the bulk discount which applied to the base published fare.
3. Changing a fuel surcharge is easier than changing a published airfare. 4. Commissions: To my knowledge, sales commission are not paid on a surcharge. If 1/2 the airfare is surcharges, then the airline saves 1/2 the commission it would have to pay otherwise.
The federal government is well aware of the practice as many people have complained. I believe the practice is tolerated because it can be seen as a business subsidy that doesn't have to be discussed or that is subject to international trade rules.
Sure, someone with common sense will say, fine, then just increase the base fare. The Canadian airline industry will reply, oh but we cannot because other airlines around the world are doing it.
Don't hold your breath waiting for AC to see the benefits of pricing integrity. It will take federal legislation to compel the change. In Canada, that means waiting for the USA to lead the way. Canada has never been a leader when it comes to consumer protection.
There are a few reasons IMO why the airlines may engage in the practice;
1. Taxation. There appears to be some tax benefit to how surcharges are allocated and what exactly is taxable as income vs. expense recapture.
(Remember the complaints in the USA about luggage surcharges and how the airlines were relying on all of these charges that were not taxable?)
2. It allows the airlines to circumvent some of the previously discounted fares that have been offered to bulk purchasers. Fuel surcharges were usually not subject to the bulk discount which applied to the base published fare.
3. Changing a fuel surcharge is easier than changing a published airfare. 4. Commissions: To my knowledge, sales commission are not paid on a surcharge. If 1/2 the airfare is surcharges, then the airline saves 1/2 the commission it would have to pay otherwise.
The federal government is well aware of the practice as many people have complained. I believe the practice is tolerated because it can be seen as a business subsidy that doesn't have to be discussed or that is subject to international trade rules.
Sure, someone with common sense will say, fine, then just increase the base fare. The Canadian airline industry will reply, oh but we cannot because other airlines around the world are doing it.
Don't hold your breath waiting for AC to see the benefits of pricing integrity. It will take federal legislation to compel the change. In Canada, that means waiting for the USA to lead the way. Canada has never been a leader when it comes to consumer protection.
Apr 30, 2013, 8:20 pm
#37
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 145
When redeeming Aeroplan miles you pay Aeroplan rates and fees.
There are also other rules - Aeroplan allows 2 stopovers or 1 stop + 1 open jaw, United allows 1 stopover + 2 open jaws.
Fees on Aeroplan.com will almost always be higher than whats shown on united.com (do a simple YYZ-MIA search for example)
There are also other rules - Aeroplan allows 2 stopovers or 1 stop + 1 open jaw, United allows 1 stopover + 2 open jaws.
Fees on Aeroplan.com will almost always be higher than whats shown on united.com (do a simple YYZ-MIA search for example)
(Hope I didn't hijack this thread and hope the OP learned something too!)
Apr 30, 2013, 9:34 pm
#38
Join Date: May 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: Air Canada Super Elite 2MM, Marriot Bonvoy Ambasador Elite & Lifetime Titanium Elite
Posts: 32
My only comment is stop flying Air Canada, and stop using Aeroplan. As a SE for 11 years, a 1 Million Mile, and close to 2 Million Miles I have contacted Air Canada president office with this complain. The official answer I got was that the full surcharge (scam charge) on reward ticket is hear to stay, and they don't relay care about what United do, no other Star Alliance carrier that charge lower full surcharge on the exact same routes.
Apr 30, 2013, 10:24 pm
#40
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,187
Yes but then you have to deal with US customs and you are also wasting a few hours each way, especially if you go to ORD. And doesn't that mean that your main flight is on United - Canadians love to hate AC but there service, lounges, IFE are generally far superior to what you get on US based airlines.
It is partially a question of how much extra time are you willing to waste and also put up with other hassles, like clearing customs an additional time each way. These Aeroplan reward tickets are usually when I take along my wife when I am on a business trip so I am not paying for my ticket, only hers (with points + scam charges + legitimate other fees).
Maybe I should look into One World since much of my overseas travel is to LHR or HKG so I could use BA and Cathay rather than AC. How is One World for these scam charges and am I better off joining BA's FF plan or Cathay's?
It is partially a question of how much extra time are you willing to waste and also put up with other hassles, like clearing customs an additional time each way. These Aeroplan reward tickets are usually when I take along my wife when I am on a business trip so I am not paying for my ticket, only hers (with points + scam charges + legitimate other fees).
Maybe I should look into One World since much of my overseas travel is to LHR or HKG so I could use BA and Cathay rather than AC. How is One World for these scam charges and am I better off joining BA's FF plan or Cathay's?
May 1, 2013, 1:46 am
#41
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NYC, YYZ
Programs: AC SE100K, SPG Gold, UA MP
Posts: 1,002
I believe how much you pay depends on the airline carrier and origin of departure and arrival. Canadian airports, especially YYZ, and LHR are notorious for high airport fees so any departures from those airports you're already disadvantaged.
After that, like many experienced FTers here, they know AC, LH and a few other airlines have a very high fuel surcharge. So if you book any of those airlines from a departure airport with high fees, you're doubly disadvantaged.
What remains is how willing are you to make connections and how selective are you on airlines. If you like to fly European carriers out of NA, US cities often have more J/F availabilities (there were last minute F seats on LH from NYC to MUC!)
Most people use the UA MP reward search site and the *A search site to check for routing combinations and availabilities. You can then call AC to feed them the itinerary. Unfortunately they will tell you they won't know the total fees 'til you issue the ticket which sucks.
IMO AE points are good for short haul flights (15K RT) cross-border, and mini-RTW in J/F on low-fee charging carriers. Anything else is a waste of points. Of note, I would also say AE points are good for *A upgrades when available, 'cause theres ZERO fees/scamcharges added. Just used 45K to go from J to F on OZ FRA-ICN with no fee. Could've gone M fare to J on LX 87 YUL-ZRH for 20K but J cabin sold out. From a M fare to J for 20K no fee on LX is worth it in my opinion. To try to get 100% status miles on the lowest possible Y fares I fly UA, LX and SQ almost exclusively, plus AC of course for Eupgrades.
Since living in NYC now I've been accumulating UA points on my Visa to use for upgrades and reward travel (no status in UA, no point in getting status with them) and getting AE points for status and redemption for mini-RTW for my family, trying to strike a balance with best of both worlds.
After that, like many experienced FTers here, they know AC, LH and a few other airlines have a very high fuel surcharge. So if you book any of those airlines from a departure airport with high fees, you're doubly disadvantaged.
What remains is how willing are you to make connections and how selective are you on airlines. If you like to fly European carriers out of NA, US cities often have more J/F availabilities (there were last minute F seats on LH from NYC to MUC!)
Most people use the UA MP reward search site and the *A search site to check for routing combinations and availabilities. You can then call AC to feed them the itinerary. Unfortunately they will tell you they won't know the total fees 'til you issue the ticket which sucks.
IMO AE points are good for short haul flights (15K RT) cross-border, and mini-RTW in J/F on low-fee charging carriers. Anything else is a waste of points. Of note, I would also say AE points are good for *A upgrades when available, 'cause theres ZERO fees/scamcharges added. Just used 45K to go from J to F on OZ FRA-ICN with no fee. Could've gone M fare to J on LX 87 YUL-ZRH for 20K but J cabin sold out. From a M fare to J for 20K no fee on LX is worth it in my opinion. To try to get 100% status miles on the lowest possible Y fares I fly UA, LX and SQ almost exclusively, plus AC of course for Eupgrades.
Since living in NYC now I've been accumulating UA points on my Visa to use for upgrades and reward travel (no status in UA, no point in getting status with them) and getting AE points for status and redemption for mini-RTW for my family, trying to strike a balance with best of both worlds.
May 1, 2013, 4:50 am
#42
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Programs: AA EXP, TK Elite, HH Gold, SPG/Marriott Gold
Posts: 939
United...
This year I booked 4 Y tickets via United MP to London. The routing was
on AC. BOS-LHR-BOS was something like $800+. I changed the routing
to BOS-LHR, BRU-BOS (again on AC) and the fees came down to $200+
I came way ahead even after buying Eurostar tickets for 4.
Agreed that this was purely due to saving on UK Government taxes and
nothing to do with AC fuel charges since United does not charge it. See
if you can do something like that to save some money. But since you
are using Aeroplan points, you are hosed on the fuel charges...
F.A.
May 1, 2013, 5:32 am
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, AC MM E75, Marriott LT Ti, IHG Dia Amb, Hyatt Glob
Posts: 15,521
Hi there,
This year I booked 4 Y tickets via United MP to London. The routing was
on AC. BOS-LHR-BOS was something like $800+. I changed the routing
to BOS-LHR, BRU-BOS (again on AC) and the fees came down to $200+
I came way ahead even after buying Eurostar tickets for 4.
This year I booked 4 Y tickets via United MP to London. The routing was
on AC. BOS-LHR-BOS was something like $800+. I changed the routing
to BOS-LHR, BRU-BOS (again on AC) and the fees came down to $200+
I came way ahead even after buying Eurostar tickets for 4.
I think OP would be ecstatic if his tickets had only been $200+ apiece instead of $1100+. Lucky for you that you were able to reduce the fees to $50+ per person. Unfortunately, that will never happen with AE.
May 1, 2013, 7:05 am
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver • DEN-APA
Programs: AF Platinum, EK Gold, AA EXP, UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 21,602
Specifically, Aeroplan adds the high fuel surcharges (scamcharges) on AC and LH flights booked with Aeroplan points.
Neither UA or LM hit you with any fuel surcharges. And unlike AP, they both price all one ways at 50% of the RT miles.
From UA.com, here is YYZ-FRA-YYZ Lufthansa First. 135K plus $233.50 in fees ($158.50 for UA elites)...
Aeroplan doesn't even show the Lufthansa YYZ-FRA flight as available, so this one is AC/LH Business on the outbound, Lufthansa First on the return. 125K plus $1,014.60 in fees, most of which are scamcharges...
Last edited by SFO777; May 1, 2013 at 7:30 am
May 1, 2013, 7:23 am
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,305
Ps the LH F flights on UA, u sure they are not the infamous phantom availability?