dibby

They started boarding us on time. Once the priority boarding finished, they made an announcement that the flight was cancelled for "operational reasons" and they disembarked us. Then they told us they'd lost our pilot. Then they found a pilot and started reboarding us, but then told us there'd be a delay, so disembarked us again. Now we're supposed to leave at 19:59, if the rest of the crew doesn't time out. Hopefully boarding the third time will be the charm.

More time for pita and hummus in the lounge.

Stranger

I had a similar situation in February.

Kind of looks like work to rules. At least that's what the SD implied that time. In our case, when they found two pilots, the cabin crew had become illegal so they also had to replace the cabin crew. I believe they pulled some from another flight.

arf04

What rules do you think they're working to?

global happy traveller

Stranger - time out is not work to rule, rather it's anti fatigue regulations set forth by the government.

If they exceeded their regulated duty hours and the government finds out, AC would be in deeeep trouble.

Stranger

Sure. I was talking about pilots. Say, they just arrived on some other flight that got a bit delayed. They might just rush to the flight they are supposed to man. Or there may be some more normal process whereby they go to some briefing room, pick up material, that sort of things.

Now about cabin crew and duty hours, I have seen cabin crew considering working past their duty time. In some cases going for it, in others, not. If the working environment gets poor, guess what?

LeSabre74

The ones spelled out in their contract?

This is what happens when the government short circuits the collective bargaining process.

arf04

I can only think of rules that apply to safety that would keep a pilot from operating a flight--e.g., timing out or illness/fatigue.

I'm genuinely curious as to what rules might be in the contract that could allow a pilot to not operate a flight as per his or her schedule other than ones that are safety or regulation related.

Pure speculation, but mid March is peak operations time so I expect that AC is stretched thin on pilot numbers. It doesn't take much for a pilot to get out of synch if his/her hours are getting close to the limit. Doug Morris had a great blog post about how complex the calcluation was and how one flight going over the expected time, or coming short, could severely affect the rest of his flying schedule for days and weeks to come. It was quite neat to read, but alas his blog is gone so I can't reference it.

I totally agree that having a government short circuit collective bargaining is not helpful. It's crazy that they could rush legistlation through but seem pretty unconcerned about Sandoz cutting back on drug production, which is affecting people all across the country. You'd think that would be the urgent matter to hand.

KenHamer

The rules that would allow a pilot to refuse a flight would all be safety related.

But those rules could still be used in a strategic fashion. For example, if a pilot was coming from a connecting flight that was perhaps a few minutes late, the pilot might walk just a bit slower to the next plane, take just a few minutes longer completing the flight plan, take just a few minutes getting a weather briefing, and so on. The accumulation of those "just a few minutes" might cause the pilot to then time-out, requiring a lot of operational rearranging in finding a replacement pilot, and then accommodating all the flight the replacement was originally scheduled on. Then you lose your take-off spot, your landing spot, ground crews are not correctly positioned for the incoming flight, and so on again.

Add to that the pilots being a little more picky about potential safety issues during their pre-flight inspection and the like, and soon you might find you have lots of significantly delayed and even cancelled flights which cost the airline significant dollars, and passengers significant grief.

Only it's really difficult to prove that anyone was doing anything improper.

DavidYYC

Mmmm!

I am pretty sure, thats exactly wants happening.

Just be prepared AC, for more of these 'delays'.

global happy traveller

Just remember they get paid brakes off to brakes on. Would they really want to jeopardize their pay cheques by timing themselves out and wasting a day at work with less pay?

My understanding is their fleet is stretched thin and any breakdowns or operational issues will mean a scramble to re-schedule the planes and crew adjustments creating a domino effect on delays and cancellations.

tracon

If it creates overtime and extra per diems for all the members...why hot?
Anyone timing out, after suitable rest, will be reassigned to other flying.
At the end of the month, it's all a wash.

global happy traveller

Not necessarily. They don't get paid airport layover n standby time. Also they dont get paid for delays on the ground. If it exceeds allowable duty time, they are required by law to rest, they cannot work extra for overtime. Their times are all logged for Regulatory audits.

CloudsBelow

I think there is a lot of double-speak and spin regarding pilot pay.

Let's take an eample : 77W Pilot, living in YUL, scheduled to operate YYZ-SCL

8p : He boards YUL-YYZ, Arrives YYZ @ 9p
930p-11p : Works on flight plan, weather, etc, etc
11p : He and his crew board the aircraft, pre-flight check lists etc
1145p : before push back, they find mx issue
1145p-1a : Maintenance works on the issue. Cant fix it. Flight cancelled.

Is someone going to tell me the pilot and other 20 crew for this flight would receive NO COMPENSATION whatsoever for their time associated with the example?

global happy traveller

In such instances you get a minimum guarantee (i believe that is legislated by the Federal Labour Code). The pilot's agreement is not made online, however the flight attendants are made online and can give a glimpse on what is/is not paid:

5.08 GROUND DUTY - PRE/POST PERIOD - Where an employee is
required to report for duty prior to or remain on duty following the
termination of a Duty Period under Article B5.03, s/he shall be paid
at one-half (½) of the hourly rate of pay for his/her classification
applicable to the duty period involved.

5.09 GROUND DUTY - SERVICE TO PASSENGERS - Where an
employee is required by the Company to provide meal, bar or
beverage service to passengers on the ground whether scheduled
or non-scheduled and whether the flight operates or not and
provided that no duty period guarantee or trip hour guarantee
credits are credited on that duty period or trip, s/he shall be paid
one-half (½) of the hourly rate of pay for his/her classification
applicable to the duty period involved.
Compensation under this Article shall be calculated to the nearest
minute but no entitlement will exist for less than thirty (30) minutes.

6.02.01 Block to block flight time - The greater of the schedule or
actual block to block flight time on the aircraft operated.
Where there is no published schedule in effect for the
equipment flown, then the actual block to block flight time
shall be used

FYI as per google - Block to block = period from the moment the chocks are withdrawn and brakes released

Note:

(1) I'm not an expert in labour issues or in aviation stuff, just what people have been telling/discussing prior and some online researching of articles/CBAs etc....

upgradesecret

You should check for the difference between CARS duty day as mandated by law and a Union contract duty day.