Security changes in T1
 

I'm writing this from the T1 MML. Effective yesterday, Air Ontario/Alliance passengers are no longer allowed in the international portion of T1. Air Ontario/Alliance passengers can only access the MLL from the landside elevator, and we must exit by that route as well.

(Bit of a pain, really, especially having to go back out through security to get to the gates.)

I saw that notice posted next to the MLL gateside elevator when I was there on Wednesday. I took my chances, and was able to get to the Regional gates. I guess you're saying that I did this on the last possibe day that I could...

This is going to cut down on my "down" time, as I'll have to leave an extra 10 mins to get through security and to the gate. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I arrived from T2 on the airside shuttle and tried really hard to get past the security guard, but he wouldn't budge. I could almost see the hall leading to the MLL, but I was forced to go back out to the main part of the terminal, and then through security again. It's quiet today, but it would be really inconvient on a normal Friday afternoon.

Are you on the 15:45 flight to YGK I presume?

I've been waiting for this to happen http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I hope they won't close the MLL altogether for domestic passengers.

That is incredibly frustrating. I usually stand by for my YXU flights because there's almost always one that I can get before the one I'm scheduled for. I guess this means no quick trips to the MLL any more http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif IMO this is not the best way to improve security in T1. It irks me that AC would make passengers go to the trouble of passing through security twice because AC is to lazy to do passport check at international gates.

I will raise the issue with G.M. for sales and service http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif here in YSB.We are paying more to fly around the province than across the pond.We always seem to get the short end. Is this more an issue for duty free? P/U as purchased as opposed to claiming at gate.
In the early evening ,when the transatlantic flights are scheduled,security is busy.Where I had a 45 minute window for a MLL visit,will no doubt become a thing of the past.Where there is no competition,you get what they want to give you.
When you do not take care of the customer,somebody else will.

The simple issue is that this is a necessary precondition to sterile transit.

I am prepared to wager that AC is going to set up sterile transit from US to International and v.v. They will probably use the old upstairs PIL as a transit area, with airside bus connection to the International area of T1.

But this means that you cannot allow International bound passengers to co-mingle with domestic passengers. (Which means, I am afraid, that the MLL will close to GX flights when that happens.)

[This message has been edited by AC*SE (edited 04-16-2001).]

Ottawa in T2 and Kingston in T1...

What kind of organization is this? Why would AC give up T3 to charters, which is the most renovated of YYZ terminal anyway?

T1 is designed so badly... gates are not numbered sequentially... CC, BB, AA, then DD?? Also, what's up with the double alphabets? People will think.. AA hmm, where is AB or AAA? Why not just A, B, and C?

Transborder flights mixed with domestic ones in T2. International flights mixed with Ontario in T1... People in AC are really smart in organizing this, eh? Now they will lose millions of dollars to set up barriers and "security features" or move the gates again? No wonder they need AIF with silly things like this in YYZ!

I hope you're wrong, AC*SE. If the T1 MML becomes exclusive to international pax then it's going to be horribly underused. As it is, it's a very quiet lounge most of the day until the international flights start to pick up in the late afternoon. Other than in the early morning and the late afternoon who will use it except for the regional passengers?

Actually, I think this might have been a brilliant move on AC's part. This probably hurts AC's competitors more than it does AC. Some people might be reluctant to fly AA or BA in order to avoid a terminal that is shared with charter airlines.


That's a pretty obvious combination. What's your problem with it?

I really don't follow your logic. How do you think this results in an AIF?


[This message has been edited by After Burner (edited 04-16-2001).]

I find that T3 is pretty quiet even with the charter airlines there.

I think that AC had to move to T1 and T2 and 'give up' T3 in order to better facilitate the switch-over to T-New in a couple of years. It would hardly be reasonable to expect KL, BA, AF, CX etc. and a host of non *A US airlines to move out of T3 to T1 for just a few years and then move back in as soon as AC had vacated it for the new terminal. The charter airlines just ended up moving to T3 (where they were eventually going anyway) by default. If AC wanted the new terminal, they were going to have to endure T1 for a few years.

I think the presence of easier connections between T1 and T2 is also a factor in AC's choice to consolidate its operations in these two (albeit older) terminals. I think T3 is overall a nicer terminal, but given its insufficient capacity given the size of AC and its remote location relative to the other terminals, too bad...

FewMiles..

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Spoke with GM,YSB today.He learned of new security measures by a phonecall.Their group, GX, is to meet in YYZ on 23rd and 24th of this month.
His view is that GX passengers are/will not be able to use the MLL.("a slap in the face" were his words)
Seems the feeders are not even up to speed with the rapid fire changes at AC.
Another well used perk as an Elite member that is lost in YYZ.
Perhaps I will check-in at T2 and use the MLL,then the airside bus to T1. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

T1 is too small to handle International and transborder. T2 is too small to handle US + Rapidair + Domestic + GX.

Theoretically, T1 could take YQT, but probably couldn't take YOW Rapidair. T1 could take HKG, but since the first leg isn't sterile, that confuses YYZ-YVR...

So we get these weird anomolies:

T1: International--except HKG; Ontario--except YQT, YOW.

T2: Domestic, except Ontario; USA, except Hawaii...

But I don't think there's a simpler solution out there.

I think they should just accept T1 is not set up to deal with the way they want to organise things. IMO if they emliminate lounge access in T1 they will quite simply lose point to point traffic. There will be no incentive to go to the airport if they remove access to business facilities. Too much time would be wasted, especially when considering VIA Rail has powerpoints etc on their carriages. T2 MLL IMO is not a vialble option. It is like a 20min walk with tunnel. They should really have a second T2 domestic lounge (similar to the "Lounge 2" that BA has in T4) that is closer to the other end of domestic.

I think AC should shelve their silly "serilisation", and wait until they get their new Disneyland terminal where they will hopefully organise things in a sensible way.

I know full well that I am not driving in a great deal of revenue with my TCuts YGK-YYZ trips, but if I am reflective of other (often high yield) point-to-point GX passengers, then GX will loose out on a fair amount of traffic I would suspect.

With no T1 MLL access, I will simply walk away and take the train between YGK-YYZ. I can do a round trip Via1 First class trip for $50 more than what AC will cost by the time the AIF is added. There would be no point flying, as I would be just as uncomfortable and treated as a non-status flyer... This is not a good idea for AC I don't think.

I don't mean to sound like an a**, but please don't start telling me that that is what I should be doing in the first place because AC isn't in the business of flying me back and forth on such short hops. Been there done that!

It seems to me like AC is converting the T1 MLL into a Premium International Departures Lounge à la AA Flagship Lounge or US Envoy Lounge. It might not be such a bad idea if they provide higher quality amenities in this lounge such as champagne and gourmet hors d'oeuvres.

... and build another non-"flagship" lounge to host the Elite, SuperElite and StarGold regional passengers.

That wouldn't be necessary if they allow you to use the T2 Domestic MLL instead. There's no point in building more lounges when the building is going to be demolished in a few years.

In the end, what's more valuable:

1) point-to-point GX pax opriginating or terminating in YYZ; or

2) US -> International pax connecting through YYZ?

With all due respect to my learned friends on the board from such points far flung as YXU and YGK, I think the answer is 2). AC (and previously CP) both did very well with sterile transit in YVR, a similar facility in YYZ would prove to be very lucrative.

"far flung" eh? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I would argue that an Elite passenger is more valuable than a one-time LGA X/ YYZ LHR passenger for example.

There is no need for Air Canada to screw one set of customers in an effort to attract another... and there is certainly no need to screw Elite, SuperElite and StarGold customers. They should either build a domestic lounge in T1, or leave it the way it is.

I don't think that now is a good time to begin pissing off Elites again. We just finished up the merger crap, and finally we're beginning to get good service back. I don't know how many elites would be willing to stick around for another series of garbage treatment from this crew. Really the major thing keeping me with Air Canada is the fact that they are the only air carrier to provide regional service. As I have said, if MLL in T1 acces goes, I will not fly AC regional... and if I don't fly AC regional, RootsAir fly and AA fly anywhere I usually fly to!!!

[This message has been edited by Fisch (edited 04-16-2001).]

Fisch, you'd have to buy at least 8 TravelCUTS YGK-YYZ r/t tickets to make up for the value of 1 excursion LGA-YYZ-LHR ticket.

I would assume that most GX passengers are connecting in YYZ anyway, so the T1 MLL is probably not used by many domestic YYZ originating pax as it is.

That's why I said
in a post on this thread a few hours ago. I am saying that I don't think that I am reflective of the revenue that is driven from most Elite passengers.

Lets try to do a careful read of other people's posts before we make silly replys, FlyerAl

Fisch, I was merely replying to this quote:

Furthermore, if the T1 MLL gets converted into a premium AA Flagship-style lounge, then it would be worth pleasing the full fare premium LGA-YYZ-LHR traveller over the YGK-YYZ Elite traveller.

[This message has been edited by FlyerAl (edited 04-16-2001).]

FlyerAl... what I am saying is that *most* Elite pax that fly YGK-YYZ are doing that as a conection to the rest of AC network. If I were a business person who paid Y fares (which MANY Elites do), and I am flying YGK X/YYZ LAX for example on a weekly basis, I am giving a very large amount of revenue to the airline. If the lounge is closed to me even just for my retun portion, and I am faced with the chance of being stuck in that gross T1 with no lounge, I for one would train to YYZ or YUL in VIA1 and fly a competitor.

I never for one second claimed that AC should design their sterile transit in T1 around me, but I think they will chase away many more people than just me!

[This message has been edited by Fisch (edited 04-16-2001).]

I'm confused. If you were travelling YGK-YYZ-LAX wouldn't you use the T2 lounge?

But if you're flying YGK-YYZ-LAX you could use the T2 MLL. Same goes for the return, so you wouldn't have to spend much time waiting in "gross T1".

I'm sure AC must've calculated that the revenue out of having a true international hub operation at YYZ outweighs the cons of T1 sterile transit.

Yes, but not on the return. One would have to wait in T1 for the YYZ-YGK flight...

Ok... I;m big enough to admit when I've been beaten in an argument. I didn't take into consideration that GX pax could wait in T2 domestic MLL on the return.

I'll be interested to see how this unfolds over the summer. I may owe AC*SE several rounds of drinks if this goes through http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Ah, good point.

BTW, I think LGA-YYZ-LHR is an unrealistic example given the number of LGA-LHR nonstops. Better examples might be: DEN-YYZ-LHR, STL-YYZ-LHR.

On my numerous LHR flights I've been amazed by how many times I've sat next to people travelling from US cities via YYZ. This might be an important market.

Given the relatively small populations of places such as YGK, YXU, YSB, etc., I would be surprised if routes such as YGK-LAX represent a significant market.

Just for the record--the wager between Fisch and me is that sterile transit between T1 and T2 will be in place by 15 October 2001.

At stake are a few rounds of cocktails--so we are talking serious wagering here, folks!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

But the condition for an AC*SE win of the big wager is that regional passengers would be precluded from using a lounge in T1...

I agree with many of the comments and reasons this board has for a sterile MLL.
Many of my 90-100 segments per year are YYZ-YSB.I pay top dollar and frequently use this service during winter.(Road white outs due to lake effect snows are common,as well as a lousy and dangerous highway connection.)
When bad weather happens in YYZ,the regionals are the 1st to get scrubbed.It could be a T-storm,snow, wind,and so on.
I have spent too many hours in YYZ waiting due to cancellations.I will reconsider my options as I have earned (Elite)and paid for access
to a MLL.(I have a Diners MLL since 1990).

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Just to clarify, the T1 MLL is NOT closed to regional passengers. (At least so far.) You have to access it from landside, and a security guard checks your boarding pass when you leave to ensure that domestic passengers do not get access to the international gates. The agents I talked to on Friday said that Canada Customs forced the change, not AC.

T3 used to be set up so that domestic passengers could not access the international gates when CP was still there. A security guard was always standing in the C wing checking boarding passes.

Boy, you go away for a day and the board goes wild. It's worse than e-mails. I've just been working through this thread and I must admit that I did start to get a bit confused on the logic. But I'll still throw in my 2c.

I do see the argument for separating international from domestic, at least from the Customs perspective. On my last flight through T1 I wanted to go out into the main concourse for some (forgotten) reason and security let me through. It didn't occur to me until later that I could have been staggering out with a dozen bottles of that amazingly cheap duty-free stuff they sell gateside.

Having said that, I cannot accept that it make sense (if this is the plan) to make the MLL into something that is exclusively for international pax. Like Fisch and acysb87, I do a lot of travelling through T1. Almost all of these involve transfers to/from the US or international. I suspect that this is a very common itinerary. Obviously, for US travel outbound, the T2 lounges are available, but on the way home I often go for earlier standby flights or I have to wait because of delays. It really would not be possible to use the T2 lounge because of the risk of not being close enough to the gates, and risking missing a flight.

I also want to repeat my earlier argument. My experience is that the T1 lounge is not crowded during the middle of the day when there are not many international flights. I assume that most of the people in there are those who are connecting on regional flights. My allegiance to AC (now) is based mainly on the the fact that I can use the lounges between flights, and I am concerned that E/SE pax could be denied this privilege in the busiest airport in the country. YGK/YSB/YXU people need a place to go.

oops, double post

[This message has been edited by FlyerAl (edited 04-17-2001).]

I don't think it would have been possible anyway, because you usually have to produce a valid boarding pass at the cashier when purchasing duty-free products.