Originally Posted by
jkhuggins
We're not at the point where one has to obtain specific, positive governmental permission to fly --- although Secure Flight is getting dangerously close to that.
Originally Posted by
greentips
I think you might be wrong here. We have the "no-fly" list created and maintained under secret conditions by the government. Since not being on that list is a prerequisite to flying in this country, I submit we do need government permission. We do not know how someone gets on (or off) that list. For the moment, the government's list is a banishment list, but it could create a "trusted traveler" list and disallow everyone not on that list access to airports. Then you might have to go through a vetting process to get your travel card.
For international flights, this has been codified. It comes with your international ticket. Your carrier must file a manifest with the DHS and wait for an email message giving permission to depart. Absent that permission email, you are not allowed to depart. That is, at least to me, a requisite specific positive government permission. The reason given by the government: to vet private parties against the no-fly list. As long as that list exists, we do, in fact, need positive government permission to fly.
We're splitting hairs between the two of us here ... but, what the heck, I'll go ahead and dispute with you for just a little bit.
Right now, the "no-fly" list is a list of people who are not permitted to fly. Presumably, there has to be a reason to be placed on that list (as arbitrary as it might be in practice). Consequently, one doesn't specifically need positive permission to fly; one needs to verify (to the satisfaction of the government) that one has not been banned from flying.
There would be a significant difference if one had to obtain specific, positive permission to fly. Officials would have to have a specific reason to grant permission to a passenger. They could deny permission solely on the basis of not having enough information on which to act ... or other, less savory reasons. (Images of
Casablanca are coming to mind ...)
Anyways ... I agree that the distinction between the two scenarios is subtle. But there's a difference between asking "Am I on the no-fly list?" and "May I fly today?". Gratefully, we're not at the latter stage. (Yet.)