VA non-refundable fares are strict - even with schedule change
Nov 17, 2014, 6:50 pm
#1
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VA non-refundable fares are strict - even with schedule change
I had a 2.5 hr schedule change on my return connecting flight that I'm flying in March. Originally booked into 'T' fare class.
In the past month, it feels like I've been through all ranks of the call center, but in the end I'm told that VA has a very strict policy that does not allow refunds back to the method of payment on a non-refundable ticket in the event of a schedule change. Only options seem to be credit or reschedule to another flight. Also verified that this is stated in the COC.
Just FYI for anyone planning with tight schedules on VA...
In the past month, it feels like I've been through all ranks of the call center, but in the end I'm told that VA has a very strict policy that does not allow refunds back to the method of payment on a non-refundable ticket in the event of a schedule change. Only options seem to be credit or reschedule to another flight. Also verified that this is stated in the COC.
Just FYI for anyone planning with tight schedules on VA...
Nov 18, 2014, 11:32 am
#2
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I had a 2.5 hr schedule change on my return connecting flight that I'm flying in March. Originally booked into 'T' fare class.
In the past month, it feels like I've been through all ranks of the call center, but in the end I'm told that VA has a very strict policy that does not allow refunds back to the method of payment on a non-refundable ticket in the event of a schedule change. Only options seem to be credit or reschedule to another flight. Also verified that this is stated in the COC.
Just FYI for anyone planning with tight schedules on VA...
In the past month, it feels like I've been through all ranks of the call center, but in the end I'm told that VA has a very strict policy that does not allow refunds back to the method of payment on a non-refundable ticket in the event of a schedule change. Only options seem to be credit or reschedule to another flight. Also verified that this is stated in the COC.
Just FYI for anyone planning with tight schedules on VA...
You cannot, under common law, contract away your rights, so whilst the COC might say that this is ok, it doesn't mean it is.
Shame them on social media, making sure as many people as possible hear about it (including the VA team), and if that doesn't work contact Fair Trading (or the local equivalent in your state) to get it resolved.
Dave
Nov 18, 2014, 1:44 pm
#3
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before trying to argue that it is unfair and shouting on social media, I would start with the state fair trading department and ask whether such a term in a contract of carriage is permitted.
If fair trading agrees with the airline, I don't see much point going further
If fair trading agees with the customer, then address with the airline
Not liking a term does not mean that it is invalid in the contract
Looking at it , the poster seems to be in the USA and , if this is a r/t from USA to Australia, DOT would be the appropriate place to check whether VA's terms comply with DOT requirements
If fair trading agrees with the airline, I don't see much point going further
If fair trading agees with the customer, then address with the airline
Not liking a term does not mean that it is invalid in the contract
Looking at it , the poster seems to be in the USA and , if this is a r/t from USA to Australia, DOT would be the appropriate place to check whether VA's terms comply with DOT requirements
Nov 19, 2014, 6:03 am
#4
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If there is a specific USA DOT rule that governs schedule changes, it would be great to know. But from what I've read, the only official protection we have here is against bumping and tarmac delays.
Nov 19, 2014, 1:06 pm
#5
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If they persist I would be consulting a vulture (oops, meant to type LAWYER there).
Dave
Nov 19, 2014, 2:11 pm
#6
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Thinking on it, I don't think that there is anything that prohibits such a term in the US. In the US, with non refundable fares, even the taxes are not required to be refunded in the case of a cancellation
I would be surprised if the T&C would fall foul of US regulations but , if thinking that there may be an issue, I would be raising an issue with DOT and not think of trying to take it to court ( which iirc due to regulations would have to be in federal not state )
As long as flight time changes were covered in the CoC , I do not see that it is a contract change post agreement
I would be surprised if the T&C would fall foul of US regulations but , if thinking that there may be an issue, I would be raising an issue with DOT and not think of trying to take it to court ( which iirc due to regulations would have to be in federal not state )
As long as flight time changes were covered in the CoC , I do not see that it is a contract change post agreement
Last edited by Dave Noble; Nov 19, 2014 at 2:29 pm
Nov 21, 2014, 5:55 pm
#7
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There is some DOT industry guidance on schedule changes. The weakness to my mind is failure to define what constitutes a significant change.
As we have stated in the past (see our industry letter of July 15, 1996), carriers should not be applying nonrefundability/penalty provisions in situations in which a change in travel date or a significant change in scheduled departure or arrival time has been necessitated by carrier action. The same is true of a change in carriers or airports used, even without a significant schedule change, or a change from direct to connecting service or from nonstop service to a flight with a stop. We believe that imposing monetary penalties on passengers in these kind of situations or maintaining any contract of carriage or tariff provision mandating such a result would be grossly unfair and violate 49 U.S.C. 41712.
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/20010925.htm
As we have stated in the past (see our industry letter of July 15, 1996), carriers should not be applying nonrefundability/penalty provisions in situations in which a change in travel date or a significant change in scheduled departure or arrival time has been necessitated by carrier action. The same is true of a change in carriers or airports used, even without a significant schedule change, or a change from direct to connecting service or from nonstop service to a flight with a stop. We believe that imposing monetary penalties on passengers in these kind of situations or maintaining any contract of carriage or tariff provision mandating such a result would be grossly unfair and violate 49 U.S.C. 41712.
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/20010925.htm
Dec 23, 2014, 4:01 am
#8
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If the airline created a 2.5 hour change I'd be getting my money back for sure.
Not of your making - they need to address it. OR put you on an earlier flight - zero cost to them then.
What if you books for an AFL game that started at 2pm and they got you there as it near ended. Crazy. Not your fault.
Not of your making - they need to address it. OR put you on an earlier flight - zero cost to them then.
What if you books for an AFL game that started at 2pm and they got you there as it near ended. Crazy. Not your fault.
Dec 23, 2014, 7:19 am
#9
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OP should start by reading the CoC to see exactly what it says about schedule changes.
Dec 23, 2014, 1:19 pm
#10
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Originally Posted by CoC
11. Schedule Changes and Disruptions
11.4 We will try to ensure that you and your Baggage depart and arrive as close as possible to the scheduled times. However, we do not guarantee flight times or schedules, and they do not form part of your contract of carriage.
11.5 We may need to cancel or delay and reschedule flights or services due to industrial action, landing restrictions, airport loading restrictions, unsuitable weather conditions, technical problems, operational reasons, or any event beyond our reasonable control, and scheduled flight times or destinations are not guaranteed. Subject to the consumer guarantees referred to in paragraph 2.4 and to the extent permitted by any applicable Laws, we are not liable for any Loss which you may incur as a result of any such delayed or rescheduled flight or service.
11.4 We will try to ensure that you and your Baggage depart and arrive as close as possible to the scheduled times. However, we do not guarantee flight times or schedules, and they do not form part of your contract of carriage.
11.5 We may need to cancel or delay and reschedule flights or services due to industrial action, landing restrictions, airport loading restrictions, unsuitable weather conditions, technical problems, operational reasons, or any event beyond our reasonable control, and scheduled flight times or destinations are not guaranteed. Subject to the consumer guarantees referred to in paragraph 2.4 and to the extent permitted by any applicable Laws, we are not liable for any Loss which you may incur as a result of any such delayed or rescheduled flight or service.
Dec 23, 2014, 9:08 pm
#11
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What Qantas CoCs say:
What Virgin CoCs say:
What Virgin Guest Charter says:
So, I guess the question is does Qantas offer a full refund in these circumstances because that is what Consumer Law requires or out of the goodness of Alan's heart? The supplementary question of course is what is the definition of Significant Change.
In the case of Virgin the question is do they not mention the option of a refund because they have no obligation in consumer law to offer a refund and do not have someone warm, caring and generous at their helm or that they prefer to leave that option unstated with the hope that people will accept that they have no statutory right to a refund in these circumstances when in fact people do have that right - I tend to favor the latter view and agree with those above who suggest contacting Fair Trading.
One would think that this is a common enough occurrence that a definitive answer could be found somewhere in the Googleverse
(c) Significant Change
If, due to circumstances within our control, after you buy your Ticket we make a significant change to the scheduled departure time of your flight or the flight is cancelled, we will:
rebook you on the next available flight (or combination of flights) on our services to your booked destination at no additional cost to you
alternatively, at your option, refund the applicable fare
If, due to circumstances within our control, after you buy your Ticket we make a significant change to the scheduled departure time of your flight or the flight is cancelled, we will:
rebook you on the next available flight (or combination of flights) on our services to your booked destination at no additional cost to you
alternatively, at your option, refund the applicable fare
11.3 When you make a Booking, we or an Authorised Agent will tell you the scheduled time of your flights. These times will also be noted on your Itinerary and may be noted on your Ticket. If we change the time of your flight, we will make reasonable attempts to contact you or your Authorised Agent, using the contact details you have provided us. We do not guarantee that we will contact you, and so you should check prior to your flight to make sure your flight times have not changed.
When We Need to Change Your Schedule
If your flight is changed or cancelled we will contact you in a timely manner via the details given in your booking and provide you with alternative flight details.
If the alternative flight time does not work for you, we will move you to another available Virgin Australia service, with no further cost to you (as close as possible to your original scheduled departure time and in the same class you booked).
If your flight is changed or cancelled we will contact you in a timely manner via the details given in your booking and provide you with alternative flight details.
If the alternative flight time does not work for you, we will move you to another available Virgin Australia service, with no further cost to you (as close as possible to your original scheduled departure time and in the same class you booked).
In the case of Virgin the question is do they not mention the option of a refund because they have no obligation in consumer law to offer a refund and do not have someone warm, caring and generous at their helm or that they prefer to leave that option unstated with the hope that people will accept that they have no statutory right to a refund in these circumstances when in fact people do have that right - I tend to favor the latter view and agree with those above who suggest contacting Fair Trading.
One would think that this is a common enough occurrence that a definitive answer could be found somewhere in the Googleverse
Last edited by 3544quebec; Dec 23, 2014 at 9:13 pm
Dec 23, 2014, 9:50 pm
#12
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Well, even in Europe a 2.5 hour delay to a schedule would not even trigger any compensation
being based in USA, perhaps ask the DOT what it classes as a significant change since DOT regulations also are based on "significant change" too
being based in USA, perhaps ask the DOT what it classes as a significant change since DOT regulations also are based on "significant change" too
Dec 24, 2014, 2:11 am
#13
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Well, once only and never again, I booked Jetstar... Two weeks later they changed schedule by 2 hours and I would have had a very tight connection to SQ. Called them and they did refund without any ado...
Until now I always booked QF or VA as my international feeders, but seeing the posts above, I may need to rethink it...
Until now I always booked QF or VA as my international feeders, but seeing the posts above, I may need to rethink it...
Dec 24, 2014, 9:01 am
#14
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Virgin will refund or re-sked if you get to the right person.
No way known will that lame COC hold any water if taken to Consumer Affairs if the change was made way in advance by THEM.
No way known will that lame COC hold any water if taken to Consumer Affairs if the change was made way in advance by THEM.