UA842 [GRU-ORD] Diversion to MIA on July 13
Jul 17, 2009, 1:45 pm
#31
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
wouldn't it make more sense to exercise that power in a more reasoned approach, for example if the purser is the one who normally interacts with the flight deck and theres some "issues" rather than land the plane at I would assume great expense to UA tell that FA to work Y and have another FA take their place and address whatever the problem was after the flight.
It would seem that unless there is a situation that is likely to impact the safety of the flight (ie when a pax goes crazy) diverting a flight is somewhat extreme. Though as you point out the info in the story is pretty vague so who knows but am I sure given the expense of this someone will be looking long and hard at what happened.
It would seem that unless there is a situation that is likely to impact the safety of the flight (ie when a pax goes crazy) diverting a flight is somewhat extreme. Though as you point out the info in the story is pretty vague so who knows but am I sure given the expense of this someone will be looking long and hard at what happened.
Not to get morbid, Aluminum, and as I am not a flight crew member, I do not know the extent of the absolute power. (I know previously to last contract, the authority started at start of engine/pushback and terminated as station ground crew accepted the aircraft, but that may have changed in the last decade.) My question is where does this authority end. Let's say (based on US finding's, not Egypt's) that EgyptAir 900 had the PIC instead of the 1st officer take his actions. Where does his authority end in such a hypothetical situation? Can the crew, for the safety of the flight/passengers override him/her, in effect mutiny, or replace him/her?
Or another hypothetical situation. Let's say the rumors are true about this situation. Say the PiC had to go number 1 (or wanted to sign the General Declaration a bit early.) Can he waive the safety rules put in place after 9/11 to protect the flight deck (including all the passenger's lives as well as those on the ground) for his own comfort/whim?
I used to watch Love Boat. Never on the LAX-Alaska, cruises, did Cap'n Stubbing pull into the port of SFO because Gopher (Congressman Grandy) gave him attitude...he did that every episode. Although I did hear that Congreeman Grandy had a page fired for calling him Gopher. God, I miss the simple life of the 70's, where TV Cap'ns were laid back, and pursuers like Gopher didn't have the attitudes either.
Or another hypothetical situation. Let's say the rumors are true about this situation. Say the PiC had to go number 1 (or wanted to sign the General Declaration a bit early.) Can he waive the safety rules put in place after 9/11 to protect the flight deck (including all the passenger's lives as well as those on the ground) for his own comfort/whim?
I used to watch Love Boat. Never on the LAX-Alaska, cruises, did Cap'n Stubbing pull into the port of SFO because Gopher (Congressman Grandy) gave him attitude...he did that every episode. Although I did hear that Congreeman Grandy had a page fired for calling him Gopher. God, I miss the simple life of the 70's, where TV Cap'ns were laid back, and pursuers like Gopher didn't have the attitudes either.
Now, the F/O by law is the second in command. If he does not agree with something the Captain is doing, he is supposed to voice his concerns. If it got to a point safety was immediately compromised, he could physically intervene lawfully, but again, that is his call, and he will answer for it with the company and FAA. Example might be a Captain wants to land with a certain amount of fuel, but the FO wants more. The FO can voice his concerns, but if the fuel amount is considered safe by the company, and the FO walks off the flight or causes an incident inflight, he will suffer the consequences. Now say the Captain wants to take off with something broken, and the FO doesn't and he knows the part is required but the Captain is not listening, the FO would be right to prevent the takeoff to discuss the issue. It's a give and take, and both sides need to talk and work together. Thankfully situations like that are very rare, at least with US Carriers. Our SOP's help alleviate most of these types of situations.
As for you lav question, again that would be the Captain's call. Say he really needed to go, and due to the FA not being able to get up front (or not wanting to), he just left the cockpit for the lav, that would be his call. The whole blocking off of a cockpit with a cart is a United procedure only, not FAA. If something like that happened, the captain would write up an operational report and submit it to United explaining why normal procedures were not followed. I've seen this happen before, a jumpseater in the cockpit and a pilot had to go bad. He eventually jumped out to use the lav before the cart was set up, but no big deal since we had two folks in the cockpit, but it was still non-standard.
Not really.
Jul 17, 2009, 2:08 pm
#32
Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLL
Programs: DL ♦M MM|HH♦|Marr Slvr|CO UA AA US|Pri Cub Plat|SPG|Avis 1st|Htz 5*
Posts: 5,044
The pilot might not have been acting rational due to illness. It's possible. I want to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. Of course we don't know how credible Jamake1 at airlines.net is. I'm going to call a friend of mine at United and see if he has the skinny. The MCO vs. MIA he mentions lends credence to his post - at least in my opinion.
Jul 17, 2009, 2:53 pm
#33
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: From and of Boston.
Posts: 4,973
Originally Posted by from airliners.net via JohnnyJet:
The Purser of flight 842 was female. The Captain of the flight wanted the general declaration so he could add his signature to it. The Purser was not in a position to grab another flight attendant right at that moment to monitor the area so the gen dec could be passed through the cockpit door. The situation escalated.
The Captain made the decision to divert to MIA to have the Purser removed from flight for undermining his Captain's Authority. The First Officers on flight 842 advocated for MCO, since MIA is no longer served by UA Mainline. The Captain chose to divert to MIA anyway.
The Purser was removed from the flight upon arrival at MIA and sent to a layover hotel, followed by a deadhead back to ORD after required crew rest.
The ORD-GRU-ORD trip was the Captain's first trip back to the line after extended sick leave. The Captain has been removed from the remainder of his flying schedule. The Purser who was removed, has NOT been removed from the remainder of her flying schedule.
The Captain made the decision to divert to MIA to have the Purser removed from flight for undermining his Captain's Authority. The First Officers on flight 842 advocated for MCO, since MIA is no longer served by UA Mainline. The Captain chose to divert to MIA anyway.
The Purser was removed from the flight upon arrival at MIA and sent to a layover hotel, followed by a deadhead back to ORD after required crew rest.
The ORD-GRU-ORD trip was the Captain's first trip back to the line after extended sick leave. The Captain has been removed from the remainder of his flying schedule. The Purser who was removed, has NOT been removed from the remainder of her flying schedule.
But is this not all a logical extension of the United corporate culture, where customers are considered to be and treated as inconveniences? Time after time after time, every United employee has seen corporate actions that think of the customer last: staffing levels, the ICC, award redemption nightmares, and on and on. There is a reason that United is consistently at or near the bottom of customer satisfaction lists.
So, with a corporate culture that is comfortable with treating customers like dirt, is it really all that surprising that no one gave much thought to the people who actually pay for the salaries and the fuel and the equipment?
Jul 17, 2009, 4:10 pm
#34
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: IAD
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 166
Update: It is now confirmed by another source in the previously referenced Anet thread in reply 123 that the FA has returned to flying her normal schedule but the Captain has been removed from flight duties pending further review.
Jul 17, 2009, 4:46 pm
#35
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Let's assume that there are at least a few grains of truth to this. It's not all that difficult to piece together a situation where 2 people who might both having been having a bad day and who might both have not-so-tiny egos were having a workplace disagreement. It's not uncommon. What is, of course, uncommon is the resolution - diverting the a/c.
But is this not all a logical extension of the United corporate culture, where customers are considered to be and treated as inconveniences? Time after time after time, every United employee has seen corporate actions that think of the customer last: staffing levels, the ICC, award redemption nightmares, and on and on. There is a reason that United is consistently at or near the bottom of customer satisfaction lists.
So, with a corporate culture that is comfortable with treating customers like dirt, is it really all that surprising that no one gave much thought to the people who actually pay for the salaries and the fuel and the equipment?
But is this not all a logical extension of the United corporate culture, where customers are considered to be and treated as inconveniences? Time after time after time, every United employee has seen corporate actions that think of the customer last: staffing levels, the ICC, award redemption nightmares, and on and on. There is a reason that United is consistently at or near the bottom of customer satisfaction lists.
So, with a corporate culture that is comfortable with treating customers like dirt, is it really all that surprising that no one gave much thought to the people who actually pay for the salaries and the fuel and the equipment?
Now # 2, your comment that this is about screwing the customer since we don't care is pretty much bunk, if I might say so politely. It had nothing to do with purposely doing anything to the passengers. Yes, the United corporate culture reeks of self-fulfillment and not much care for passengers, just like they don't care about employees, but that doesn't mean we employees feel the same about passengers.
I don't find this situation anything more than what it really is, a conflict between two crewmembers which resulted in the captain landing and taking one off. He will answer for his decision and if wrong, will suffer whatever consequences come from it (the benefits of command). Could he have done something different, continue on, one would like to think so, but I really don't know, nor do you or anyone here. But really, to try and link it to some "culture" of not caring about the passengers is just a wild stretch.
AD
Last edited by aluminumdriver; Jul 17, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Jul 17, 2009, 4:53 pm
#36
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,241
I don't know if an "Update" from some anonymous source on a.net counts as confirmation.
Jul 17, 2009, 5:31 pm
#37
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: IAD
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 166
Sorry, I should have mentioned this in my original post. The author of that confirmatory post is flight crew at United. This is borne out by his many past posts on A.net. I believe him to be a reliable source.
Jul 17, 2009, 5:32 pm
#38
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Unless he was on that flight, I would take anything with a grain of salt. Nothing official has been released, so everything is heresay really.
Jul 18, 2009, 5:48 pm
#40
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 13
This is the email I received on what happened:
ok, here goes... this is what I heard from a friend
> who got the scoop
>
> from someone who called ***** directly.
>
>
>
> Ok, it's 45 min into the 11-hr flt from gru and the
> capt calls back to
>
> the purser saying he wants his crew dec (not gendecs-- crew
> dec). she
>
> says, sorry i forgot to bring it up earlier, i'll bring
> it up at the
>
> next potty brk. No, I need it now. well, I'm in the
> middle of the
>
> service right now, working a cart, there's only 3 of us
> back there.
>
> it'll have to wait until the next lav brk. No, I need
> it now. Ok,
>
> whatever, she brings it up, and of course there's no
> one to guard the
>
> door for the 3 person rule, so she slides it under the
> door. Done.
>
>
>
> Well, cut to after the svc when she goes up to do the potty
> break. f/o
>
> comes out, she goes in. Capt starts yelling at her so
> loudly that the
>
> f/o hears it in the lav, the f/c galley girl doing the
> guard duty
>
> hears, and the entire f/c cabin hears. the f/o apologizes
> to the f/a
>
> saying he's been a total dick the whole 4 day trip.
> Doesn't allow them
>
> to call him by his name (which btw is ***** ******) but they
> must only
>
> call him "sir". sheesh. sounds like a wiener, er,
> winner.
>
>
>
> So later, she goes on break and in the middle of her break
> the f/c
>
> girl wakes her up and tells her she's got to get ready,
> they're
>
> landing in 30 min. Well, she whips into action, thnking of
> course that
>
> there's a full prep coming. Gets on the phone to the
> cockpit "do you
>
> want to do this over the phone, or should I go up
> there?" "No, you've
>
> been relieved of your duties, I am not speaking to you
> anymore" He
>
> gets on the pa, "ladies and gentlemen, we are landing
> in mia in 30
>
> min" Period. (heard from someone else that he refused
> to go to mco
>
> where there are ual personnel, don't know about that)
> In the meantime,
>
> the crew (other than the purser and f/c girl) didn't
> know a thing
>
> about what was going on. Even the other pilots weren't
> told anything
>
> until last minute. One was on break. He planned this all on
> his own.
>
>
>
> So they land in mia at 0416 and pull up to the gate, and
> there's
>
> police and tsa and fire dept all there, guns drawn. They
> only know
>
> that there's an emergency and the flt is landing at mia
> at 0416. But
>
> apparently they had the purser's name. "are you
> ***** ********?" "yes"
>
> "come with us" she goes out on the jetbridge, and
> they ask what
>
> happened. Captain comes out, and says.......
>
>
>
> "She's a TERRORIST and I want her arrested!"
>
>
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
> "what happened?" "She defied the
> captain's authority. she refused to bring my crew dec when i asked for it and slid it under the door" the authorities are all sympathetic with ***** and look at him like he's crazy, but she stays in mia and the flt goes on to ord.
> they land in ord and are met by all the ual people incl **** ******,
> etc.
>
> Everyone is interviewed individually and all tell the same
> story. (incl pilots) capt refused to speak w/o alpa. he's on
> suspension, his licence suspended. ***** lays over in mia, comes back
> to ord and has an atty. Everyone was very sympathetic to her. I guess all
> is ok with
>
> her.
>
>
>
> Again, this is 3rd hand story, take it as such, but sounds
> pretty
>
> scary!!
>
>
>
> PHEW!!!
>
>
>
> That's all I have...
ok, here goes... this is what I heard from a friend
> who got the scoop
>
> from someone who called ***** directly.
>
>
>
> Ok, it's 45 min into the 11-hr flt from gru and the
> capt calls back to
>
> the purser saying he wants his crew dec (not gendecs-- crew
> dec). she
>
> says, sorry i forgot to bring it up earlier, i'll bring
> it up at the
>
> next potty brk. No, I need it now. well, I'm in the
> middle of the
>
> service right now, working a cart, there's only 3 of us
> back there.
>
> it'll have to wait until the next lav brk. No, I need
> it now. Ok,
>
> whatever, she brings it up, and of course there's no
> one to guard the
>
> door for the 3 person rule, so she slides it under the
> door. Done.
>
>
>
> Well, cut to after the svc when she goes up to do the potty
> break. f/o
>
> comes out, she goes in. Capt starts yelling at her so
> loudly that the
>
> f/o hears it in the lav, the f/c galley girl doing the
> guard duty
>
> hears, and the entire f/c cabin hears. the f/o apologizes
> to the f/a
>
> saying he's been a total dick the whole 4 day trip.
> Doesn't allow them
>
> to call him by his name (which btw is ***** ******) but they
> must only
>
> call him "sir". sheesh. sounds like a wiener, er,
> winner.
>
>
>
> So later, she goes on break and in the middle of her break
> the f/c
>
> girl wakes her up and tells her she's got to get ready,
> they're
>
> landing in 30 min. Well, she whips into action, thnking of
> course that
>
> there's a full prep coming. Gets on the phone to the
> cockpit "do you
>
> want to do this over the phone, or should I go up
> there?" "No, you've
>
> been relieved of your duties, I am not speaking to you
> anymore" He
>
> gets on the pa, "ladies and gentlemen, we are landing
> in mia in 30
>
> min" Period. (heard from someone else that he refused
> to go to mco
>
> where there are ual personnel, don't know about that)
> In the meantime,
>
> the crew (other than the purser and f/c girl) didn't
> know a thing
>
> about what was going on. Even the other pilots weren't
> told anything
>
> until last minute. One was on break. He planned this all on
> his own.
>
>
>
> So they land in mia at 0416 and pull up to the gate, and
> there's
>
> police and tsa and fire dept all there, guns drawn. They
> only know
>
> that there's an emergency and the flt is landing at mia
> at 0416. But
>
> apparently they had the purser's name. "are you
> ***** ********?" "yes"
>
> "come with us" she goes out on the jetbridge, and
> they ask what
>
> happened. Captain comes out, and says.......
>
>
>
> "She's a TERRORIST and I want her arrested!"
>
>
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
> "what happened?" "She defied the
> captain's authority. she refused to bring my crew dec when i asked for it and slid it under the door" the authorities are all sympathetic with ***** and look at him like he's crazy, but she stays in mia and the flt goes on to ord.
> they land in ord and are met by all the ual people incl **** ******,
> etc.
>
> Everyone is interviewed individually and all tell the same
> story. (incl pilots) capt refused to speak w/o alpa. he's on
> suspension, his licence suspended. ***** lays over in mia, comes back
> to ord and has an atty. Everyone was very sympathetic to her. I guess all
> is ok with
>
> her.
>
>
>
> Again, this is 3rd hand story, take it as such, but sounds
> pretty
>
> scary!!
>
>
>
> PHEW!!!
>
>
>
> That's all I have...
Jul 18, 2009, 6:47 pm
#41
Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLL
Programs: DL ♦M MM|HH♦|Marr Slvr|CO UA AA US|Pri Cub Plat|SPG|Avis 1st|Htz 5*
Posts: 5,044
With thanks to Vietguy I have attempted to make this story a bit easier on the eyes when reading.
Copy/paste can be your friend OR your enemy. 
This is the email I received on what happened:
ok, here goes... this is what I heard from a friend who got the scoop from someone who called ***** directly.
Ok, it's 45 min into the 11-hr flt from gru and the capt calls back to the purser saying he wants his crew dec (not gendecs-- crew dec).
she says, sorry i forgot to bring it up earlier, i'll bring it up at the next potty brk.
No, I need it now.
well, I'm in the middle of the service right now, working a cart, there's only 3 of us back there. it'll have to wait until the next lav brk.
No, I need it now.
Ok, whatever, she brings it up, and of course there's no one to guard the door for the 3 person rule, so she slides it under the door.
Done.
Well, cut to after the svc when she goes up to do the potty break.
f/o comes out, she goes in. Capt starts yelling at her so loudly that the f/o hears it in the lav, the f/c galley girl doing the guard duty hears, and the entire f/c cabin hears. the f/o apologizes to the f/a saying he's been a total dick the whole 4 day trip. Doesn't allow them to call him by his name (which btw is ***** ******) but they must only call him "sir". sheesh. sounds like a wiener, er, winner.
So later, she goes on break and in the middle of her break the f/c girl wakes her up and tells her she's got to get ready, they're landing in 30 min. Well, she whips into action, thnking of course that there's a full prep coming. Gets on the phone to the cockpit "do you want to do this over the phone, or should I go up there?"
"No, you've been relieved of your duties, I am not speaking to you anymore"
He gets on the pa, "ladies and gentlemen, we are landing in mia in 30 min" Period. (heard from someone else that he refused to go to mco where there are ual personnel, don't know about that)
In the meantime, the crew (other than the purser and f/c girl) didn't know a thing about what was going on. Even the other pilots weren't told anything until last minute. One was on break. He planned this all on his own. So they land in mia at 0416 and pull up to the gate, and there's police and tsa and fire dept all there, guns drawn. They only know that there's an emergency and the flt is landing at mia at 0416. But apparently they had the purser's name. "are you ***** ********?" "yes" "come with us" she goes out on the jetbridge, and they ask what happened. Captain comes out, and says.......
"She's a TERRORIST and I want her arrested!"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"what happened?"
"She defied the captain's authority. she refused to bring my crew dec when i asked for it and slid it under the door" the authorities are all sympathetic with ***** and look at him like he's crazy, but she stays in mia and the flt goes on to ord. they land in ord and are met by all the ual people incl **** ******, etc.
Everyone is interviewed individually and all tell the same story. (incl pilots) capt refused to speak w/o alpa. he's on suspension, his licence suspended. ***** lays over in mia, comes back to ord and has an atty. Everyone was very sympathetic to her. I guess all is ok with her.
Again, this is 3rd hand story, take it as such, but sounds pretty scary!! PHEW!!!
That's all I have...
ok, here goes... this is what I heard from a friend who got the scoop from someone who called ***** directly.
Ok, it's 45 min into the 11-hr flt from gru and the capt calls back to the purser saying he wants his crew dec (not gendecs-- crew dec).
she says, sorry i forgot to bring it up earlier, i'll bring it up at the next potty brk.
No, I need it now.
well, I'm in the middle of the service right now, working a cart, there's only 3 of us back there. it'll have to wait until the next lav brk.
No, I need it now.
Ok, whatever, she brings it up, and of course there's no one to guard the door for the 3 person rule, so she slides it under the door.
Done.
Well, cut to after the svc when she goes up to do the potty break.
f/o comes out, she goes in. Capt starts yelling at her so loudly that the f/o hears it in the lav, the f/c galley girl doing the guard duty hears, and the entire f/c cabin hears. the f/o apologizes to the f/a saying he's been a total dick the whole 4 day trip. Doesn't allow them to call him by his name (which btw is ***** ******) but they must only call him "sir". sheesh. sounds like a wiener, er, winner.
So later, she goes on break and in the middle of her break the f/c girl wakes her up and tells her she's got to get ready, they're landing in 30 min. Well, she whips into action, thnking of course that there's a full prep coming. Gets on the phone to the cockpit "do you want to do this over the phone, or should I go up there?"
"No, you've been relieved of your duties, I am not speaking to you anymore"
He gets on the pa, "ladies and gentlemen, we are landing in mia in 30 min" Period. (heard from someone else that he refused to go to mco where there are ual personnel, don't know about that)
In the meantime, the crew (other than the purser and f/c girl) didn't know a thing about what was going on. Even the other pilots weren't told anything until last minute. One was on break. He planned this all on his own. So they land in mia at 0416 and pull up to the gate, and there's police and tsa and fire dept all there, guns drawn. They only know that there's an emergency and the flt is landing at mia at 0416. But apparently they had the purser's name. "are you ***** ********?" "yes" "come with us" she goes out on the jetbridge, and they ask what happened. Captain comes out, and says.......
"She's a TERRORIST and I want her arrested!"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"what happened?"
"She defied the captain's authority. she refused to bring my crew dec when i asked for it and slid it under the door" the authorities are all sympathetic with ***** and look at him like he's crazy, but she stays in mia and the flt goes on to ord. they land in ord and are met by all the ual people incl **** ******, etc.
Everyone is interviewed individually and all tell the same story. (incl pilots) capt refused to speak w/o alpa. he's on suspension, his licence suspended. ***** lays over in mia, comes back to ord and has an atty. Everyone was very sympathetic to her. I guess all is ok with her.
Again, this is 3rd hand story, take it as such, but sounds pretty scary!! PHEW!!!
That's all I have...
Jul 18, 2009, 6:52 pm
#42
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bellingham/Gainesville
Programs: UA-G MM, Priority Club Platinum, Avis First, Hertz 5*, Red Lion
Posts: 2,808
one of the problems I have with this story is that we will never hear everything because I'm sure disciplinary proceedings are private matters although because the authories, FAA, and arresting agents were involved, there will certainly be some public aspects to it. It just seems too bizzare that a personality conflict among uniformed crew members can get someone booted. If it truly was the T thing declared by the captain, was there that declaration in the air so the fighter jets could be scrambled? Why wasn't the purser restrained prior to landing? I hope the disciplinary process works because if it doesn't, flying UA just seems to be a risk of running into the wrong personality and getting your day and perhaps life ruined as a result... Thank God I've never had that encounter and pray it never happens. For that reason it's a news and frequent-flyer worthy story.
Jul 18, 2009, 8:56 pm
#43
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Wow, that is a strange one. I haven't heard of a story like that before.
AD
AD
Jul 18, 2009, 9:07 pm
#44
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Crystal City, VA
Programs: United Mileage Plus 1K 2 MM, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 2,627
Hard to make heads or tails of all this, but it certainly is fascinating, from an outsider's POV; especially AD's insights...
Jul 18, 2009, 9:11 pm
#45
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: On the Road
Programs: Air Canada Aeroplan, Delta SkyMiles, Southwest Rapid Rewards
Posts: 486
Captain Queeg
The exploits and meltdown of Captain Queeg reminds me of the quote from Harry Steele who headed up the old Eastern Provincial Airways, and who was later Chairman of Canadian Airlines -- "Pilots are overpaid, oversexed bus drivers in theatre usher uniforms."