United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’ {2017}
Apr 21, 2017, 10:27 am
#61
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The PS flights were O/D on the JFK side, I highly doubt a large number were using star connections onward to Europe.
You'd have to be a real glutton for punishment if you think flying an offline-connection via crowded and delay prone airspace is a good idea.
I suppose its one thing if you're flying from some po-dunk mid-american city via EWR, but we're talking about SFO/LAX which have plenty of nonstop options to Europe, and you don't have to worry about an otherwise absurdly long connection in NYC to keep it safe.
You'd have to be a real glutton for punishment if you think flying an offline-connection via crowded and delay prone airspace is a good idea.
I suppose its one thing if you're flying from some po-dunk mid-american city via EWR, but we're talking about SFO/LAX which have plenty of nonstop options to Europe, and you don't have to worry about an otherwise absurdly long connection in NYC to keep it safe.
Apr 21, 2017, 10:32 am
#62
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Kirby makes the most unvarnished sense of any UA executive in the last 20 years. No coincidence that he came from outside. He's dead right here.
UA is not diving back into JFK in the short / medium term because, of course:
Also, right now the UA brand doesn't have the magnetism to re-attract fat corporate contracts away from AA. Most cost-is-no-object key influencers are probably not clamoring to fly United.
UA is not diving back into JFK in the short / medium term because, of course:
Also, right now the UA brand doesn't have the magnetism to re-attract fat corporate contracts away from AA. Most cost-is-no-object key influencers are probably not clamoring to fly United.
I'll go through the logic again for you. If leaving JFK was significantly a wrong move, they'd be planning to come back. If the only reason to not come back is the cost of lost physical and customer capital (customer capital can be recovered or increased in the long-run), then it proves it was a marginal operation at best, worthy of consideration to be cut. At worst it was a complete loser, and cutting it was the right move. So now calling it a "wrong decision" loses all basis in reason and indicates more of a personal statement against previous management. Kirby's statements conflict, no question.
And where are those fat corporate contracts for AA at SFO?
Ding! We have a winner!
Apr 21, 2017, 10:36 am
#63
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From JFK I used to fly UA to Europe and to South America. I was even ticketed to fly UA planes from JFK to Asia. UA at JFK used to be way more than just Dulles and California. And no, I'm not going back to the days of UA being Boeing -- I'm talking about UA service in the FT era.
I'm pretty sure that's not what Kirby was talking about.
Apr 21, 2017, 10:37 am
#64
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There is another thread about UA not having to compete in EWR. Well, this just proves it. This is an outrageous profit margin for an airline!! This can only happen if there is insufficient competition. Proof positive UA does not have to compete in EWR.
Apr 21, 2017, 10:38 am
#65
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Leaving New York’s JFK "Was the Wrong Decision"...
What a coincidence: that's exactly what I said on my UA post-flight survey asking about my p.s. EWR->SFO in March.
As a once/twice a year "P" fare customer on this route, I've never run an airline but, esp. coming back to pick up p.s. from Brooklyn or W. Conn., there's no question which terminal is easier and quicker to get to: JFK. And while JFK has some serious traffic issues getting to/from, so can EWR.
Once one gets to JFK, the customer experience is infinitely better in so many aspects: signage, check-in, TSA Pre check, distance between TSA or baggage claim and the gate/UC Club, avoiding the hordes of people in poorly designed piers in this mega-plex which EWR is, helpfulness of UA staff, etc., etc.
Only Q. I have is: when is UA returning p.s. to JFK??
What a coincidence: that's exactly what I said on my UA post-flight survey asking about my p.s. EWR->SFO in March.
As a once/twice a year "P" fare customer on this route, I've never run an airline but, esp. coming back to pick up p.s. from Brooklyn or W. Conn., there's no question which terminal is easier and quicker to get to: JFK. And while JFK has some serious traffic issues getting to/from, so can EWR.
Once one gets to JFK, the customer experience is infinitely better in so many aspects: signage, check-in, TSA Pre check, distance between TSA or baggage claim and the gate/UC Club, avoiding the hordes of people in poorly designed piers in this mega-plex which EWR is, helpfulness of UA staff, etc., etc.
Only Q. I have is: when is UA returning p.s. to JFK??
Apr 21, 2017, 10:41 am
#66
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Taken in context with Kirby's past at AA (buildup at LAX), what he's said since arriving at United (wants to build LAX back up for UA) and other things he discussed during the Q&A (entertainment contracts), it's clear he was referring to UA losing LAX-originating business when it exited LAX-JFK.
Maybe in the past, today, no longer... from the earnings call:
https://seekingalpha.com/article/406...pt?part=single
Scott Kirby
Excluding Florida. I mean, Newark was down 1%, and so I don't know. And actually, what's happened in Newark is there was a flood of low-cost carrier capacity, and for a long time, United Airlines did not match the prices. We started matching the prices and I think our revenues, while down in those markets, is down less than it was before. So, we feel really good about that strategy.
At least our incremental change in strategy and competing more aggressively with the low-cost carriers in Newark, I think, is revenue positive. To be clear, with all the capacity in Florida, PRASM is certainly down, but it was down even more before we decided to start competing aggressively.
Excluding Florida. I mean, Newark was down 1%, and so I don't know. And actually, what's happened in Newark is there was a flood of low-cost carrier capacity, and for a long time, United Airlines did not match the prices. We started matching the prices and I think our revenues, while down in those markets, is down less than it was before. So, we feel really good about that strategy.
At least our incremental change in strategy and competing more aggressively with the low-cost carriers in Newark, I think, is revenue positive. To be clear, with all the capacity in Florida, PRASM is certainly down, but it was down even more before we decided to start competing aggressively.
Apr 21, 2017, 11:02 am
#67
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UA was already only operating scraps of service when it pulled out.
UA killed that service more than a decade ago. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...nited-airlines
I'm pretty sure that's not what Kirby was talking about.
UA killed that service more than a decade ago. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...nited-airlines
I'm pretty sure that's not what Kirby was talking about.
For years -- including in the 2000s -- UA had way more of an international long-haul network out of JFK than Delta. UA could have tried to be the Delta of JFK, but instead they were to be the Continental of Newark. Some may say this outcome is a product of corporate signaling (to limit competition) and of questionable, government-assisted industry support, and I wouldn't be disputing that.
I'm pretty sure Kirby is still American-focused and is indeed not complaining about the lack of UA international service at JFK in any way that will make UA be at JFK what it was within the past 20 years.
But international service at JFK from other carriers is eating into COdbaUA @EWR. EWR isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's still my idea of the armpit of NYC-area airports.
Last edited by GUWonder; Apr 21, 2017 at 11:07 am
Apr 21, 2017, 11:02 am
#68
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Taken in context with Kirby's past at AA (buildup at LAX), what he's said since arriving at United (wants to build LAX back up for UA) and other things he discussed during the Q&A (entertainment contracts), it's clear he was referring to UA losing LAX-originating business when it exited LAX-JFK.
At AA, LAX is everything to them. That's all they have on the West Coast, and Kirby will have that strategic perspective. His actions at AA and UA indicate he really cares about market share. That sounds like a poor reason to keep JFK.
Apr 21, 2017, 11:45 am
#69
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UA had international service out of JFK within the FT era -- post-1998.
For years -- including in the 2000s -- UA had way more of an international long-haul network out of JFK than Delta. UA could have tried to be the Delta of JFK, but instead they were to be the Continental of Newark. Some may say this outcome is a product of corporate signaling (to limit competition) and of questionable, government-assisted industry support, and I wouldn't be disputing that.
For years -- including in the 2000s -- UA had way more of an international long-haul network out of JFK than Delta. UA could have tried to be the Delta of JFK, but instead they were to be the Continental of Newark. Some may say this outcome is a product of corporate signaling (to limit competition) and of questionable, government-assisted industry support, and I wouldn't be disputing that.
The only time United had way more of an international long-haul network out of JFK than Delta was prior to Delta's acquisition of PanAm's European routes. Yes, United flew to more continents but it had many, many fewer destinations, passengers, RPMs, etc.
Apr 21, 2017, 11:46 am
#70
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Sorry, but Kirby's statement fails a logic test. Failing at logic is the opposite of making sense. I think we're seeing another reason why AA let him go.
I'll go through the logic again for you. If leaving JFK was significantly a wrong move, they'd be planning to come back. If the only reason to not come back is the cost of lost physical and customer capital (customer capital can be recovered or increased in the long-run), then it proves it was a marginal operation at best, worthy of consideration to be cut. At worst it was a complete loser, and cutting it was the right move. So now calling it a "wrong decision" loses all basis in reason and indicates more of a personal statement against previous management. Kirby's statements conflict, no question.
...
I'll go through the logic again for you. If leaving JFK was significantly a wrong move, they'd be planning to come back. If the only reason to not come back is the cost of lost physical and customer capital (customer capital can be recovered or increased in the long-run), then it proves it was a marginal operation at best, worthy of consideration to be cut. At worst it was a complete loser, and cutting it was the right move. So now calling it a "wrong decision" loses all basis in reason and indicates more of a personal statement against previous management. Kirby's statements conflict, no question.
...
Kirby has the benefit of hindsight, so it is not really a sign of brilliance now. But the biggest take-away from me is that United finally has an executive that can think beyond a spreadsheet.
The overall network, the frequent flier program, customer service, etc are all factors which drive revenue and yields. Decisions to cut any of these areas lead to further consequences where are not easily captured in forecasts.
Getting that is the difference between a leader and a data analyst.
Apr 21, 2017, 11:53 am
#71
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Slimeball thought calling it "New York / Newark" would be same diff
as with 99% of things, PMUA had the business analysis correct. p.s.means SFO/LAX-JFK
Nothing p. about New Jersey
as with 99% of things, PMUA had the business analysis correct. p.s.means SFO/LAX-JFK
Nothing p. about New Jersey
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 21, 2017 at 12:15 pm Reason: Quote updated to reflect Moderator edit
Apr 21, 2017, 11:58 am
#72
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What I find funny, people are still defending the move today, even though the President of the actually airline said it was a bad move.
UA lost corporate contracts that are affecting some west coast operations. You can defend EWR vs JFK, but the PRESIDENT of UNITED said it was a bad move to pull out of JFK. How anyone can actually continue to try to defend the move is just amazing.
As hard as you try, EWR is not NY for people from across the country and world.
UA lost corporate contracts that are affecting some west coast operations. You can defend EWR vs JFK, but the PRESIDENT of UNITED said it was a bad move to pull out of JFK. How anyone can actually continue to try to defend the move is just amazing.
As hard as you try, EWR is not NY for people from across the country and world.
Apr 21, 2017, 12:02 pm
#73
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From JFK I used to fly UA to Europe and to South America. I was even ticketed to fly UA planes from JFK to Asia. UA at JFK used to be way more than just Dulles and California. And no, I'm not going back to the days of UA being Boeing -- I'm talking about UA service in the FT era.
PMUA dropped the NRT option (and LHR, though that one i can imagine was thin margin)
Apr 21, 2017, 12:13 pm
#74
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What I find funny, people are still defending the move today, even though the President of the actually airline said it was a bad move.
UA lost corporate contracts that are affecting some west coast operations. You can defend EWR vs JFK, but the PRESIDENT of UNITED said it was a bad move to pull out of JFK. How anyone can actually continue to try to defend the move is just amazing.
As hard as you try, EWR is not NY for people from across the country and world.
UA lost corporate contracts that are affecting some west coast operations. You can defend EWR vs JFK, but the PRESIDENT of UNITED said it was a bad move to pull out of JFK. How anyone can actually continue to try to defend the move is just amazing.
As hard as you try, EWR is not NY for people from across the country and world.
Apr 21, 2017, 12:24 pm
#75
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