GUWonder

And even if they were long-legged enough, it's not like the airlines are contractually bound to guarantee such passengers a specifically-identified seat in a specific cabin on a specific plane and/or plane type. Quite obviously, not all seats in an airline fleet are necessarily equal.

ksandness

Do very occasional passengers (e.g. the ones taking a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Orlando or Las Vegas or a cousin's wedding) even realize that the cheaper fare comes at the price of sitting with their knees jammed against the seat in front of them or their hipbones crushed between two arm rests? Have they flown on enough airlines or for a long enough period of time to have any standard of comparison?

The airlines and the passengers are in a classic downward spiral. As prices go down, amenities are removed, and the more amenities are removed, the less willing occasional travelers are to pay. If you are going to get the same tight seat, 6 ounce glass of soft drink, packet of three pretzels, and unexplained delays, whether you pay $300 or $320, why not save the money? If, as actually happened, I paid $200 for my fare by buying after a sudden price drop, while the person next to me paid $580 because he bought way in advance, and we both receive exactly the same lousy service, that is an incentive to go for the cheap ticket every time.

As a more savvy traveler, I am unwilling to pay low prices for extremely early morning flights or cramped seat. If it costs $300 to fly at 6:00AM and $400 to fly at 9:00AM, I'll pay the extra money. I don't buy in first class (it's way overpriced for what you get), but I'll take any buy-ups offered, and if I'm flying United, I always buy Economy Plus.

But your average traveler doesn't even know that these options exist.

ryanrule

when the cheap one keeps getting crappier, and the next step up costs 10x the price, its not an option.

libertarians are trash.

GUWonder

The US airline-industry's' fan-base which fancies laissez-faire allowances at least for the industry's cartel kingpins are ideologues of sorts but they are mostly anything but libertarians. They are better described as corporatist fans in favor of socializing the losses and costs of the industry and marketplace while fancying that the industry's privatized gains be maximized at the cost of the customers and the general public.

Unimatrix One

No they haven't. All JAL 787s are 8 across.

On their website they tout the advantage of their 8 across layout vs. competitor's 9 across.

https://www.jal.co.jp/newsky/ss8/economy/seat/

Tchiowa

High quality restaurant lasagna costs 10x what Costco frozen lasagna costs.

More to the point, E+ is fraction more than E-. Maybe 1/3 to 1/2 more. Certainly not 10x more.

The airlines didn't just one day reconfigure all their planes to have cramped seats. Low cost, low service airlines came in, undercut the prices and took the business. The other airlines responded with similar service. Each time an airline cut service and cost, they gained ridership.

We are where we are today because the people voted for it. With their wallets.

I can just about guarantee you that if an airline started a service on a short flight, like SFO/LAX, and had everyone stand holding straps like a bus and put in 3 times as many people but charged half as much, the planes would be sold out in no time.

Those who don't want that kind of trade off are in the minority. They lost the vote.

Tchiowa

Once again you accuse the airlines of criminal behavior. Once again I suggest you provide your evidence of a cartel in the airline industry to the DOJ. You'd probably get a sizable reward.

In the interim you could provide your evidence of a cartel to the rest of us.

Or you can continue with the 60s Berkeley "stick it to the man" rhetoric.

GUWonder

Once again, the efforts to stuff words in my mouth is a failure.

Not all cartels and cartel-like behavior are illegal. And not even all illegal cartels and cartel-like behavior are necessarily discovered and/or prosecuted by the US DOJ.

Tchiowa

Private cartels are in fact illegal in the US. And all cases that are discovered are prosecuted.

So tell us about the airline cartel. You specifically said that. Please tell us about it.

GUWonder

I'm not going to play the semantics game you want.

Both of the above sentences have already been in dispute; and I'm not here to convince you, even as the facts are that not all cartels are illegal and that not all discovered cartel-like actions are prosecuted. [If you wish, then you can continue to argue with yourself, as with your arguing against your posts' introduced straw-men (which are anything but representative of my statements), or as with playing semantics (via attempts to deny other valid definitions and use of a word or words just because you don't like some possible connotations even when the word/words are denotatively used correctly).]

The current and future state of economy class comfort doesn't look so good for customers flying in/to/from the US. Given all the waivers and favors governments have granted the US industry's kingpins, this transition to economy class discomfort seating isn't really all that surprising. Give them a bit, and then they want more but certainly don't want to lose what they've been given. Sounds a bit like the customers

Tchiowa

No semantics game. You said there was a cartel. All I'm asking is that you explain.

By you and no one else. So let me back it up. Search for "cartel" Very first entry is Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cartel.asp

" In the United States, cartels are illegal"

You said cartels aren't there for price fixing. Here's another definition. This time Merriam Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cartel

"a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition or fix prices"

It is illegal in the US for businesses to conspire with other businesses to limit competition or fix prices.

So your proof that they are not illegal?

Name one legal private cartel in the US. Just one. Don't worry about restricting it to airlines. Any legal private cartel in the US.

Again, you made a claim that there is a cartel among US airlines. All I asked was justification. It appears that you can't. But you're welcome to show everyone here that you can.

In the meantime, several people have explained why economy travel has been degraded, but you won't accept it. That's fine, buy you can't give any other explanation other than an unsubstantiated accusation of illegal activity.

GUWonder

I've accepted that economy class seat comfort has been degraded, but the immediate cause of the increased discomfort in economy class is not the customers -- that cause comes from the airlines.

Your above claim about me is inapplicable. The "unsubstantiated accusation of illegal activity" and semantics concerns can remain yours.

Tchiowa

Thank you for acknowledging that you can't come up with a single example of a legal private cartel in the US.

GUWonder

I've acknowledged no such thing, despite the efforts of your post to try to stuff words in my mouth yet again. As I indicated earlier, I'm not playing your semantics game and the changing of the goal posts with regard to a word or words. It's not my issue if you or someone else is unfamiliar with the legal cartel theory in economics.

When the government grants an industry's kingpins as many favors and waivers as it has granted the airline industry kingpins, cartel outcomes take place and aren't necessarily prosecuted.

Tchiowa

I am well aware of how a cartel works and the theory. You never suggested "cartel outcomes" you said flat out there was a cartel. You also said private cartels can be legal in the US. I challenged both statements. I showed you sources. I asked for just one single example from you to back up your accusations about cartels. You diverted. Changed definitions (like you just did with "cartel outcomes"). Which is tacitly acknowledging that you can't.

Again, I thank you.