Suggestion: Implement Entry Requirement for Manufactured Spending Forum
Jul 5, 2014, 9:32 pm
#16
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
I am in favor of the changes. The FT MS forum is losing members to private forums. People are afraid to post the best ideas openly because everything is indexed by google. The deals just die too quickly.
Jul 5, 2014, 9:44 pm
#17
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
How will that prevent blogs and other bulletin boards from accessing the material on FT, particularly if their members meet the proposed requirements? Do you really think locking the forum down will keep out folks who want to profit from the material? They can just log in and read it.
Jul 6, 2014, 6:00 am
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PHX & AGP
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,453
I think people are missing the whole point of the real issues that are happening in the MS forum. The newbie's are coming in and asking questions without even reading the thread, after a while the same questions gets asked and answered. People are getting into MS off blogs that point them to FT, the newbies wont take the time to educate themselves on the whole game, they want us who have spent countless hours to spoon feed them all the answers. After a while it's get a bit much. I wouldn't mind if people can access the MS forum but aren't allowed to ask/post until they have XX time on FT and posts. This would make them do two things. 1. Leave FT and find another forum, or 2. Force these people to READ the whole thread and educate themselves on the game they are going to jump into. It's a win either way.
Jul 6, 2014, 6:09 am
#19
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: Delta, GM; HHonors, Gold
Posts: 258
As a participant in many of the forums, I have seen rude behavior in many circumstances. I often wonder why people go out of their way to write something snarky or unpleasant when it would take less effort to write nothing.
I tend to agree with FTRox87 and Majuki that we should not allow a few bad apples to spoil the bunch. There are so many welcoming FTers who patiently answer questions, even those often repeated, that to bow to those that don't uphold the spirit of these forums would be unfortunate.
Other forums are much more civil because the mods deal with snark rapidly and professionally. If this was this case for MS, I believe that it would enhance the FT community.
I tend to agree with FTRox87 and Majuki that we should not allow a few bad apples to spoil the bunch. There are so many welcoming FTers who patiently answer questions, even those often repeated, that to bow to those that don't uphold the spirit of these forums would be unfortunate.
Other forums are much more civil because the mods deal with snark rapidly and professionally. If this was this case for MS, I believe that it would enhance the FT community.
Jul 6, 2014, 6:58 am
#20
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 235
I think people are missing the whole point of the real issues that are happening in the MS forum. The newbie's are coming in and asking questions without even reading the thread, after a while the same questions gets asked and answered. People are getting into MS off blogs that point them to FT, the newbies wont take the time to educate themselves on the whole game, they want us who have spent countless hours to spoon feed them all the answers. After a while it's get a bit much. I wouldn't mind if people can access the MS forum but aren't allowed to ask/post until they have XX time on FT and posts. This would make them do two things. 1. Leave FT and find another forum, or 2. Force these people to READ the whole thread and educate themselves on the game they are going to jump into. It's a win either way.
==
New users (newbies) are just as appreciated and valued as established users.
Question: I don't have a MS deal to post but have questions. Should I post my inquiry here?
Answer: Yes. A user posting a question should feel welcomed and expect responses that provide appropriate answers. Prior to posting a question, please take the time to research and search the forum for other posts that may have already addressed the question you want to ask. If you post a query that has already been addressed in a similar thread, your post may be redirected or merged with the other post.
Flyertalk is built on a foundation of like-minded individuals supporting and helping each other. We are an established, nearly 20 year old community that expects all of our contributors to be friendly, professional and respectful.
POOR BEHAVIOR IS NOT TOLERATED. Posts not adhering to the expected guidelines will be removed and the offending poster issued a warning. Repeat offenders will have their posting privileges suspended and/or have their account terminated. Insulting or derogatory responses to new users (newbies) is forbidden.
==
so for one, according to the MS forum rules, it doesnt matter that you or others did all the legwork. flyertalk is built on helping and supporting others. support may actually include spoon feeding in the opinion of some.
two, it doesnt matter if the newbies irritate you, or others, their contribution is as valued to flyertalk and IB as yours, according to the MS forum rules.
three, according to the rules, there should be moderation and suggesting to newbs either in threads, or in PM, to do more reading when they ask questions that the answers are clearly available by following the rules and reading first. reading first is a rule. it doesnt say "read first before starting a new thread" it says "read first before posting a question that has already been answered"
i am not sure this read before posting rule is enforced enough. if it was, maybe other members who are allegedly valued by IB and flyertalk wouldnt be so openly trying to destroy the MS forum. (not saying you are)
i'm also not saying what you listed out as the problems arent true. i am just suggesting that the solution is more active moderation and enforcing the existing rules, not creating a new barrier to entry that wont stop the same problem from existing once the new wall is created.
Jul 6, 2014, 7:23 am
#21
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,050
I think that unlike the Coupon Connection, the Manufactured Spending forum has a place that should be open to all FlyerTalk members, even those who spend the majority or all of their time on the Manufactured Spending forum. FlyerTalk is a forum for sharing and collaborating information and meeting other people who have a common interest in travel, miles and points, and other related topics. Coupon Connection exists primarily as a marketplace to buy and sell which I don't think is ancillary to FlyerTalk's purpose. In contrast, I think manufactured spending will become an increasingly integral portion of a FlyerTalk member's interest as earning miles and points through flying moves to a revenue based model. Members will continue to look for other avenues to optimize miles and points, and manufactured spending can be a useful tool in this regard.
I agree with the statement that the new posters tend to be the most willing to share information and ideas. In fact, I got a rather curt private message from a longtime lurker asking me to quit posting to one particular thread because I'd help "kill the deal". I think there are two camps of FlyerTalk members when it comes to manufactured spending, mileage run deals, mistake fares, etc. There are in the information sharers and the information hoarders.
The hoarders all believe that we will run up against a tragedy of the commons situation, and publicizing these deals will ensure their demise once a profiteering blogger with credit card affiliate links spoon feeds the masses with step-by-step instructions including pictures with circles and arrows. The information sharers are those who are creating and maintaining the thread wikis, bouncing ideas around with other members, and trying different angles to get the most out of the deal. They even will answer the new member's questions that have been asked and answered vs. having pages after pages of snarky responses and a confused new member not realize he's being trolled.
The threads on the MS forum are in great need of cleanup, but I don't know the best method of going about this. Some deals change over time, so do you archive and lock old threads similar to airline meals, flight cancellations, celebrity sightings, etc. get an annual thread that gets closed each year to new posts? I haven't seen too much moderator action on the Manufactured Spending forum, so perhaps the mods are too overwhelmed. If this is the case perhaps additional moderators would be of some value. ^
I agree with the statement that the new posters tend to be the most willing to share information and ideas. In fact, I got a rather curt private message from a longtime lurker asking me to quit posting to one particular thread because I'd help "kill the deal". I think there are two camps of FlyerTalk members when it comes to manufactured spending, mileage run deals, mistake fares, etc. There are in the information sharers and the information hoarders.
The hoarders all believe that we will run up against a tragedy of the commons situation, and publicizing these deals will ensure their demise once a profiteering blogger with credit card affiliate links spoon feeds the masses with step-by-step instructions including pictures with circles and arrows. The information sharers are those who are creating and maintaining the thread wikis, bouncing ideas around with other members, and trying different angles to get the most out of the deal. They even will answer the new member's questions that have been asked and answered vs. having pages after pages of snarky responses and a confused new member not realize he's being trolled.
The threads on the MS forum are in great need of cleanup, but I don't know the best method of going about this. Some deals change over time, so do you archive and lock old threads similar to airline meals, flight cancellations, celebrity sightings, etc. get an annual thread that gets closed each year to new posts? I haven't seen too much moderator action on the Manufactured Spending forum, so perhaps the mods are too overwhelmed. If this is the case perhaps additional moderators would be of some value. ^
Jul 6, 2014, 7:51 am
#22
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The Phoenix Desert
Programs: Hilton Cubic Zirconia, Marriott Fools Gold
Posts: 1,692
I think people should have to take a quiz before they are allowed to post in the forum. That way we would know that they read at least the major hot topics that continuously have the same questions posted over and over.
Jul 6, 2014, 8:38 am
#23
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,025
I think the bigger issue is folks having a false sense of paranoia... esp those that erroneously compare any form of MS or churning to a ridiculous notion of the 'tragedy of the commons' ... they view it as a zero sum game, a fixed resource where if someone gets more of the pie, then you automatically get less. so they 'share' less and less while leeching all the same. and if you ask them why they are here and bother to keep up with the forum, they often have no response.
I dont agree with the aforementioned line of thinking at all, because much like the free markets, the overall MS arena is ever expanding and not self-consuming.
anyways, a lot of these false fears is what drives the anti-social behavior in that forum IMHO. and ironically enough the only real and new contributions/data worthy points/discoveries/strategies (even if by mistake, moments of eureka) come mostly from the newer members -- who haven't been poisoned by the kool aid certain (older) members on that sub-forum swill around and subscribe to or atleast preach. that kinda fear-mongering and taunting is rude, unnecessary and quite stupid if I maybe honest.
I believe these miscreants, who are often heavy-hitters themselves, do it on purpose to misguide and drive others away from this "hobby" which they have deemed a domain only fit for themselves... some have reportedly made MS their full-time job and not having worked an actual job for years -- so their motives while horrible, are out there for anyone to easily figure out. and would ofc be quite opposite of the motives of the forum and this board in general -- free and open sharing of good ideas, information etc. without the fear of some older member coming down on you for 'spilling the beans.' I've seen a lotta folks get scared away by these strong arm tactics employed by some of the members here. its gotta be a tough job for the mods and I'm sure they try their best to keep up with it, but often things slip thru.
and so following down this path as proposed by wharvey lets the terrorists win
jk... but seriously, going down this route is exactly what they want to happen -- the forum to continue imploding -- which is counter productive to FT and this community stands for. so no further steps should be taken without actually understanding the underlying reasons/motive of whats actually going on in that forum, why its going on and who is truly responsible. if we can attempt to eliminate or atleast neutralize those elements, the MS forum will be a much better place for free flow of information.
as far as making the forum private, I wouldnt be against it. it may block Google from indexing the contents, which honestly just hurts us regular folks as thats the best way to search thru old threads rather than the built in functionality. not to mention it helps brings in new blood and a more diverse crowd that thinks independently. on the other hand, there would be lot fewer leeches/lurkers who may or may not flood the blogs instead of actually registering and maybe contributing.
I dont agree with the aforementioned line of thinking at all, because much like the free markets, the overall MS arena is ever expanding and not self-consuming.
anyways, a lot of these false fears is what drives the anti-social behavior in that forum IMHO. and ironically enough the only real and new contributions/data worthy points/discoveries/strategies (even if by mistake, moments of eureka) come mostly from the newer members -- who haven't been poisoned by the kool aid certain (older) members on that sub-forum swill around and subscribe to or atleast preach. that kinda fear-mongering and taunting is rude, unnecessary and quite stupid if I maybe honest.
I believe these miscreants, who are often heavy-hitters themselves, do it on purpose to misguide and drive others away from this "hobby" which they have deemed a domain only fit for themselves... some have reportedly made MS their full-time job and not having worked an actual job for years -- so their motives while horrible, are out there for anyone to easily figure out. and would ofc be quite opposite of the motives of the forum and this board in general -- free and open sharing of good ideas, information etc. without the fear of some older member coming down on you for 'spilling the beans.' I've seen a lotta folks get scared away by these strong arm tactics employed by some of the members here. its gotta be a tough job for the mods and I'm sure they try their best to keep up with it, but often things slip thru.
and so following down this path as proposed by wharvey lets the terrorists win
jk... but seriously, going down this route is exactly what they want to happen -- the forum to continue imploding -- which is counter productive to FT and this community stands for. so no further steps should be taken without actually understanding the underlying reasons/motive of whats actually going on in that forum, why its going on and who is truly responsible. if we can attempt to eliminate or atleast neutralize those elements, the MS forum will be a much better place for free flow of information.as far as making the forum private, I wouldnt be against it. it may block Google from indexing the contents, which honestly just hurts us regular folks as thats the best way to search thru old threads rather than the built in functionality. not to mention it helps brings in new blood and a more diverse crowd that thinks independently. on the other hand, there would be lot fewer leeches/lurkers who may or may not flood the blogs instead of actually registering and maybe contributing.
Limiting new members would limit the forums to the oldbies who are mostly leechers now no longer sharing info.
They forget like we all do that they were newbies once and did everything they blame newbies now.
Its the same as "Kids these days" type speeches. It has been said for centuries but some people really still believe that this time it is true.
Jul 6, 2014, 11:56 am
#24
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
Why not just leave the question unanswered, then, or let it sit for someone else to answer in the hours ahead? I bypass a lot of questions from newbies on travel forums here and someone always seems to come along and answers them. Why wouldn't that work on the manufactured spend forum? Why should that forum be any different than all the others on FT in relation to new posters?
Jul 6, 2014, 12:07 pm
#25
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,060
However, I'm saying that in contrast the MS forum should allow members to live there because the MS forum is about sharing and talking about ways to earn miles and points. Going forward, I would think more people will venture into MS territory since earning has been switching from BIS miles to revenue programs and affinity credit card signup bonuses. In this sense, I think the MS forum should be treated the same as any other FT forum. Add additional moderators, clean up outdated threads, and promote an environment of coaching newbies. The rules of the MS game are constantly changing, so it's often difficult for a newbie to come in and understand 2000 posts of context, the majority of which may no longer be relevant.
Jul 6, 2014, 12:17 pm
#26
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,110
Speaking only for myself as a TB member I am not inclined to support an entry requirement for MS for many of the reasons posted by FTers in this thread. I also did not support restricting the Mileage Run when the suggestion was made to do so with that forum for similar reasons (minus the snark aspect).
Cheers.
Cheers.
Jul 6, 2014, 12:37 pm
#27
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
Having another day to think about this, I'm wondering if snarkiness should even be a criteria that's considered for imposing entry requirements on any forum here. Doesn't that really boil down to moderation style in the end? Moderators in any forum can clean that up with a lot of different tools at their disposal, including suspensions for chronic trouble makers. Why have an entry requirement to work around what moderators should be tackling?
Jul 6, 2014, 12:47 pm
#28
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP, Hhonors Gold, National Executive, Identity Gold, MLife Gold
Posts: 2,687
Having another day to think about this, I'm wondering if snarkiness should even be a criteria that's considered for imposing entry requirements on any forum here. Doesn't that really boil down to moderation style in the end? Moderators in any forum can clean that up with a lot of different tools at their disposal, including suspensions for chronic trouble makers. Why have an entry requirement to work around what moderators should be tackling?
Maybe it's just time to ratchet up the moderation of this forum to get people to comply with existing rules rather than introduce new requirements?
But overall, I agree with the sentiment. There are some forums that are seen by members as high value, that should be protected behind post/other requirements. Not sure why the requirements were put in place for CC & Omni, but perhaps there could be some rules drafted on when they will/will not consider this.
Jul 6, 2014, 2:26 pm
#29
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The Phoenix Desert
Programs: Hilton Cubic Zirconia, Marriott Fools Gold
Posts: 1,692
Since this game changes frequently it doesn't have to be specific questions that will need to be adjusted all the time.... Just general questions that newbies seem to ask repeatedly.
Some sample questions might include:
How long does it take for Cartera to post cash back confirmation for AXGC purchase?
How do I spend $10k in 3mo on a Citi card if I usually only spend $500/mo? (You could have a trick answer here by including 'buy AXGC's' since they are coded as a CA)
How do I not draw attention to myself when using GC's at WM to buy MO's?
Jul 6, 2014, 2:41 pm
#30
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,110
Some sample questions might include:
How long does it take for Cartera to post cash back confirmation for AXGC purchase?
How do I spend $10k in 3mo on a Citi card if I usually only spend $500/mo? (You could have a trick answer here by including 'buy AXGC's' since they are coded as a CA)
How do I not draw attention to myself when using GC's at WM to buy MO's?
Cheers.