wijomas

... Really? Generally a business tries to make a profit. I fail to see how you continue to call gleff's contributions a commercial venture.

kokonutz

This thread is not about gleff nor his contributions to this community nor his businesses. I know gleff. I like gleff. And he said he felt depressed so I am simply throwin' him a little love!

gleff

Oh, he's just being snarky

He knows that I do have a commercial venture where I book awards for folks, though very rarely for folks who would come to events like these, those folks want to learn to do it themselves and I'm happy to help with that. I charge a fee to folks who want me to do everything soup to nuts, generally including calling and making the reservation for him.

So he knows I won't say I don't have any commercial interests at all in any thing related to travel whatsoever.

And he can keep claiming despite all evidence to the contrary that this is all just about my bottom-line, when it just ain't.

But the mode of argument here is to ignore the bulk of the facts, to suggest that he somehow 'gets' or is 'clued in' to what really is going on. And to repeat his claims as though they were still true or demonstrable even having ignored everything to the contrary.

Fun game, actually.

kokonutz

gleff, what will it take to convince you that this thread is NOT...ABOUT...YOU?

Please, go back and read my words from a neutral perspective rather than a defensive one. I have taken pains to speak generically and in terms of what I think is good and bad for FT. I've tried hard to express my concerns in a positive and friendly manner.

I swear to God, I never made it about you. YOU keep making it about you. Not me.

gleff

Ok, koko, but re-read everything you've written. I'm done here..

SkiAdcock

Actually I disagree. You have made it about gleff & others, and you have been quite snarky at times.

I also think it's a bit strange that you make it sound as though you're the only one with the best interests of Flyertalk at heart.

And to repeat myself since you do yourself a lot

Flyertalkers are what makes Flyertalk, and Flyertalkers determine what is in the best interests of themselves, whether it be

* sharing information in forums,
* attending dos for the social aspect of it,
* attending dos in hopes of getting travel info in informal settings, or
* attending seminar dos in hopes of getting travel info in a more structured environment.

All of those are fine IMO, and it is not up to me to tell another Flyertalker which method of utilizing Flyertalk is in his/best interest.

Cheers.

beaubo

I am wading into this morass to clarify the issue of speakers being preemptively offered (not asking for) comped air and hotel.

I solicited the head of a couple of non-profit organizations here in Cleveland as well as my sister who does event coordination for the two largest hospital systems in town, for clarification and here's what they both said:

* when a speaker comes in from out of town, he is entitled to a per diem, whether he is paid or a volunteer. That per diem is set by the US government on a per city cost of living basis. It is not considered compensation and not subject to decaration as taxation of income
* in leiu of a per diem, the speaker can choose to have the event be responsible for airport transport, hotel and food costs/logistics. As most speakers are from out of town, they are happy to delegate such arrangements to host company
* in some instances, the cost of the speaker's travel-related expenses are picked up by host, sometimes by sponsor recruited by the host
* for large events, key volunteers are often paid a dedicated wage for time considered above and beyond their normal hours spent with the host non-profit as cash or consideration, such as travel-related expenses/per diem
* these expenses are considered as absolutely normal by non-profit standards, as there is no prohibition on recognizing the obvious OPPORTUNITY COSTS of a speaker donating their time and mitigating any reasonable out-of-pocket expenses

Therefore....

1. A Do-organizer is entitled to build-in a fee for their extracurricular time in executing a Do. Whether that fee is disclosed or not is immaterial, as the final cost to the participant will be the ultimate determinant as to whether the DO in general is perceived as a good value. (Kind of like YQ, knowing it as aseparate line item dooes not change total cost of ticket). So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

2. Speakers are entitled to accept travel-related cost defrayment without any sense of guilt, without being perceived as being bought off, assuming such travel-related elements are similar (not necessarily exact) to those being offered to paying customers. Such cost defrayment is not to be confused with compensation, as it is intended to be income-neutral.

As the speakers at these events are typically flush with miles and points anyway, clearly no motive can be ascribed for accumulating freebies. That said, if a DO has proactively planned for speaker cash per diem or travel-related consideration, no holier-than-thou abstention from accepting such offers should be required. Creating an efficient and affordable scenario for recruiting speakers is not suspect, its called being professional.


As the resident cynic, if Seminar DOs are banned from Flyertalk, will TB allow 'Post-ORD-DO Party' threads that tangentially reference (without a link) such events? As master loophole dudes of FFPs, you can be damn sure that no amount TB vigilance will stop posting leakage.

I'm done.

PS- As speaker for ORD-Do, I paid my own way and was offered hotel AFTER I already checked in, with no expectation of reimbursement. I happily accepted the offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies. For FTU, I offered to pay my own way and was advised that a sponsor had included our travel in their fee to FTU, so I appreciated the kind thought and took them up on offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies.

SkiAdcock

Well said.

Cheers.

beaubo

Which came first, gleff's award booking business or FTU? Which came first, ingy's book or or the ORD-Do? Which came first, tommy777 helming a huge event like FT Awards/FTU or organizing 2 huge Star Mega-Dos?

These guys have already proven their mettle and created their 'markets' in advance of these Seminar-Dos. If these guys had not been loyal and productive posters on FT and instead, were invited as 'outside' speakers or tapped to be 'outside' event organizers, would there be any questioning of their intent/motives?

The Flyertalk community is clearly proud that the talent (speakers, organizers) is homegrown, based on the tangible PAID registration support at their respective events. What is even more compelling about their respective performances is that the marketplace keeps coming back for more. Repeat business is the best metric of if the FT community feels their interests are being served in a content-rich and cost-effective manner- tommy777 with 2 SMD under his belt, ingy with a close to soldout second ORD-Do, and gleff as a consistently sought after expert from within and well beyond FT.

A seller can offer to monetize a Seminar-DO or their services, but it is the BUYERS that ultimately trigger (or not!!) such monetization. So, if any blame for 'monetizing' should be doled out, it goes to those motivated and excited attendees that clamor for and choose to pay for such events.

SkiAdcock

Repeating myself again. Well said.

And again, the attendees know that the admin fees are going towards the lunches, meeting rooms, av equipment, badges, and in some cases speaker air or hotel. If they're ok w/ it & think the value is worth it, they'll attend. If they don't they won't.

If a seminar do is not their cup of tea for info even if there's a zero admin fee, they'll go to the forums or the social dos for info that better meets their needs.

And the final repeat of myself - I have not seen a huge glut of for profit or non profit seminar dos in CB over the years. I don't think we're going to have a sudden stampede of people going yee haw. Lookit there. There are all these travelers to fleece. And I think FTers are a pretty smart bunch. They can suss out the wheat from the chuff.

On that, have a good night and/or weekend everyone.

Cheers.

DeaconFlyer

And this is where the slippery slope starts getting steep.

skofarrell

Does anyone know: What do the sponsors get out of the money they donate to offset the costs of these "FT University" / Seminar Do's? These sponsors aren't handing out grants, are they?

I think Koko has a valid point, "Do" organizers don't typically get free rooms or a free meal for organizing their respective function(s). Adding sponsors and comping organizers/speakers (even if the comp isn't all inclusive) may be where the line is being crossed, from an get together of like minded FTers in a cool location to an event that is something different.

While its fine to say that the organizers aren't profiting from it today doesn't mean that it can't be profited from tomorrow. Just ask Randy about that one...

beaubo

And the proviso which apparently escaped your bolding....

So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.

The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).

Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.

gleff

And frankly let's also a assume a bit of good faith, until demonstrated otherwise, on the part of folks putting in thousands of hours to host events for a community of frequent flyers.

Otherwise, as I said earlier, you risk create rules that hamper the very events that the community values.

Not to mention slapping in the face the very people who are providing them.

Could someone figure out a way to make money? OMG wouldn't that be 'awful' but also perhaps off-limits at that point for sharing in the community forum (maybe, I don't consider myself the true expert on this).

But in the meantime let's actually enjoy the multitude of venues for the discussion of miles and points, and actually say thanks once in awhile for the people investing time, effort, and even their own cash to pull it all together. @:-)

beaubo

Indeed, size matters!

Most small DOs do not involve overnights or arranging blocks of hotel rooms.
It is SOP for a hotel to offer some consideration (comped rooms as a function of number of paid rooms). My sister (event planner) advises that once someone books more than 50 rooms as a block, the local hotel manager is empowered to offer some comps. So, the more rooms, the more comps available. Its not unique to Seminar-Do organizers to be made these offers, ANY meeting planner would be privy, whether non-profit or not.

With agency commissions at 10-15% and meeting planner commissions 15-20%, its amazing that the maybe 2-2.5% worth of consideration/commissions are under such scrutiny.