Dr. HFH

OK, perhaps OP should have worded the question a bit more precisely, as s/he undoubtedly wanted to know about stay, night and point credit, not whether it is a physical possibility. I certainly understood what was meant.


I'm an actual litigator with nearly 30 years of experience, not an armchair lawyer. I've spent a fair amount of time litigating the interpretation and meaning of contractual terms and conditions. You?


Have you considered that there's a reason that the terms and conditions specify that while you can earn for up to three rooms, they must be in the same hotel?


Sure. They don't want you gaming the system. You're limited to credit for three rooms in a single property on any given night. IIRC there are seven Starwood properties in Bangkok. They don't want you booking three rooms in each of the seven properties, picking up 21 nights' credit per actual night. IMO that's a reasonable position for them to take.


Take whatever position you like; but Starwood's interpretation (which will be determinative) is going to be that OP is not entitled to credit for the same night at different properties. As has already been pointed out, that doesn't mean that s/he has no chance of getting that credit. Only that if s/he does, it's an oversight which slipped through and will be clawed back if Starwood finds it.

Go for it, absolutely. Great if you can get it, -- I have. But you're always at risk of losing it in an audit.

JackE

Why would they pull both?

RogerD408

Up to three rooms in the same property is now allowed by SPG and credit should be expected.

Credit for a friend's room (presuming you were not staying there too) should not have happened, but yes, properties do mess up.

I'm not sure of the process to determine you have stays at two different properties, if it's up to the property, we already know the first messed up. If it's a sweep later by SPG, we know they mess up too (why have CSRs if they are perfect). Neither of these preclude a later audit revealing the mistake and it being fixed later.

Herb687

It gives you tons of wiggle room. People keep reading things into the program T&Cs that are not there.

You and Dr. HFH are hanging your hat on the language defining a "stay" but the T&Cs do not state that one cannot have simultaneous "stays" at different properties.

The definition of a "stay" as one or more nights in the same hotel is written that way in order to make it clear that checking in and checking out of the SAME hotel on consecutive nights still counts as just one say.

Again, there is absolutely nothing in the T&Cs that prohibits eligible stays at DIFFERENT hotels on the same night.

Nowhere in the entire T&Cs.


As would be expected. And if it didn't happen automatically I would expect that a call to SPG would result in proper points, night, and stay credit posting. If SPG tried to deny that credit, there's no doubt in my mind that were it to be litigated (it wouldn't be), a litigator more competent than some on this thread would quickly dispatch with SPG's position.


In this instance you are armchair lawyering. And you are flat out wrong.


A position not supported by any language in the T&Cs.

Zero risk whatsoever unless SPG wants to blatantly violate the T&Cs of its own program. And if they did, a competent litigator could get all of that back!

schley

Also note that you receive STAY credit for Day Rates, but 0 NIGHTS credit. Just an FYI reminder.

Also I booked recently 2 hours away from one property for a night and checked in and left without checking out 4 hours later, then checked into another hotel later that night. I got stays/nights for both as I have in the past. If you need stay credits, consider Day Rates, if you need nights, then book a ghost room or two at the cheap hotel you happen by.

I did the 4 hour booking just to cross off one of the 11 brands that isn't prevalent in the world Tribute Portfolio, hint. So I paid 80 bucks and stayed at the place for 4 hours and left. Now I can get the 11k bonus for all 11 brands promo.

RogerD408

Let's flip the coin... Nowhere in the SPG T&C's does it say you are entitled to credit for stays in multiple properties on the same night. And in reading the terms as they are written, the only time multiple-night credit is stated is regarding multiple rooms in the same property.

Of course it's easy to read things into the terms that aren't there, but I doubt any impartial party would say you can book as many properties as you wish and expect credit for all of them. If I want a program that merely rewards money spent, I'd join the CC programs and not worry about where I stay.

MSPeconomist

I think the issue is that there's a presumption that you cannot be (stay) in two hotels the same night, so that the being present requirement (as well as paying, that is to stay and pay) wouldn't be satisfied.

Dr. HFH

There are lots of things that the Terms and Conditions don't specifically prohibit you from doing. Doesn't mean that you can do them, however.


And you know this with certainty because you were on the team that drafted the wording?


Just out of curiosity, what's your litigation experience?

I gave up trying to predict litigation outcomes decades ago. Judges are way too unpredictable for my taste, actually. But before you spend a lot of money with the certainty that you will prevail, you should also read and understand various parts of §13, including especially §13.17.

The wording of the SPG terms and conditions is grant-based. That means that you are entitled to only those things that are specified in the wording. If it's not there, you don't get it.


The experience of other members as described in FT suggests otherwise. And you still haven't answered my question, -- what's your experience litigating and interpreting contractual terms and language?


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. More to the point, there's nothing to lose. One's downside of trying to claim the same night in multiple properties is that you don't earn the additional credit you thought that you would.

jibi

Take 3 seconds to do a search on the topic. This has been discussed NUMEROUS times over the past decade, including since they added in language to allow credit for up to 3 rooms in the same hotel on the same night. Again, as I mentioned up-thread, in terms of receiving credit, Y-M-M-V (your miles may vary; aka you may receive credit, you may not). However, per the T&C's and per SPG's interpretation of the T&C's, doing what OP mentions would not be within the spirit, terms, or intentions of the program. And if you don't like it, they cover that in the T&C's as well (aka you really have no leg to stand on).

I can keep going, if you'd like. And if you're still not satisfied and you still want definitive proof within the T&C's, then search for the number of times "at any time" and "sole discretion" are mentioned (hint, 18 and 17 times, respectively). If you want an interpretation that mimics what you think, then you won't be receiving one... but they may point to one of those lines that uses "at any time" or "sole discretion" while they politely tell you that your interpretation of the T&C's is wrong.

ATLawyer

Oh come on. Given YOUR alleged litigation experience you should know that the Ts&Cs are, AT BEST, ambiguous. You should also know that ambiguity is interpreted against the drafter, especially in cases where the contract drafting is entirely one sided.

As stated multiple times, the contract interpretation issue is very simple--what does it mean to "stay" at a property as that word is used in section 2.1(a)(iii)(B) in the phrase "and (C) stays in one of the reserved guest rooms."

As I and many others have pointed out, there are multiple legitimate reasons to utilize separate rooms at separate hotels in the course of one night.

I have had this specific conversation with SPG in an instance where I had a hospitality suite at one hotel and a room to sleep in at another hotel, and received credit for both.

Do they have the ability to deny you the credit if you are trying to game the system? Yes. If you have legitimate reasons for having rooms at different properties will you get credit? I did.

jibi

I am not aware that anyone was saying that "legitimate reasons" did not qualify as an exception should an exception need to be argued. There's ample evidence showing that exceptions will be made for legitimate reasons. There is a rule. There are exceptions to that rule. The YMMV principle also applies for non-audited accounts, whether or not a legitimate reason exists. For the purposes of the OP, there is not a legitimate reason presented. As to whether or not it could be twisted into a legitimate reason is yet another YMMV scenario ... and considering he posted on here with the full details of his intentions, it would be a violation of the T&C's (assuming anyone can match FT nickname to SPG account ... that's another discussion in another thread) and grounds for cancellation of his account ("acted in a fraudulent or abusive manner").

Lawyers.

Oxon Flyer

Just to put the opposing view :

The actions described by the OP in post #1 are perfectly legitimate, are NOT fraudulent, there is NO violation of the SPG T&Cs, and SPG has NO grounds to cancel his account.

Dr. HFH

You're right, of course, -- ambiguities are often (but not always) interpreted against the drafter. But there has to be an actual ambiguity. For example, I practice primarily in Massachusetts. Here's what the Massachusetts Appeals Court had to say about this issue:I suggest that in the context of the hospitality industry, the "usual and ordinary sense" of "stay"ing in a hotel room would imply an overnight stay, not remaining in the room for more than a minute.

And, I think that this language would probably cover Starwood, anyway.
Well, I don't know if you will; but IMO you should.


Perhaps I misinterpreted something, but I didn't realize that cancellation of OP's SPG account was even under discussion. I completely agree, no reason at all to cancel his/her account.

jb3t

Simply Put.... I have done this on several occasions with ZERO problems what-so-ever and received all the proper credit. The scenario is that I may have booked "SPG Hotel A" for a week and may have had to run to a meeting in another city for a night, so I booked and stayed at "SPG Hotel B". Received credit for both, as I should have as I bought, paid for, and stayed in both hotels.

For the OP... You may be better off listening to the folks with real world experience with this. If you're legit, there probably won't be any issue.

For the OP Part 2... Even though it's a non-refundable rate, it would not hurt to try to get a refund. I've been successful at this. You've got a good excuse.

m0hamed

Yes, you can have concurrent hotel bookings. We often do this for convenience.

e.g. Booked ten nights at the BCN. Decided to spend one night at the LM Ra Beach and another at the Westin Valencia during those ten nights and wanted to keep our room with our luggage. Received points for all but only 10 night credit.

We did tell front desk of our plans so we weren't checked out as it can be problematic when the hotel notices your gone for 48 hours.