rsteinmetz70112

I don't know if it's worse with a hub and spoke or a point to point. In point to point delays propagate through the rest of the schedule.

Kevin AA

An F offering is useless if you're not sitting in an F seat. Homeless people who walk down 5th Ave in NYC don't become "rich" when they walk past those really expensive shops. This is why I maintain that a premium airline must be either all F, or you look at it from the perspective of the entire plane, not just from the front while ignoring the fact that there's lots of people behind you who are probably not thinking "wow such a premium airline, that was awesome to walk past those big comfy First Class seats". In fact it could have the reverse effect where people think "grrr, why do I have to sit in a coach seat with barely enough space to sit in it paying $500 while these people probably got upgraded for free or they're employees living up the high life".


This particular point started with "Southwest has only one aircraft type in its fleet", so minutia and NetJets and Learjets is irrelevant because the original argument just makes no sense. Conversely, suppose a cheap crummy airline has 17 different types of planes. Does that make it any more premium than the "fast food of the skies" Southwest? I think not. Can we agree that number of unique aircraft type is completely irrelevant to the discussion?


Yes, I agree. However, the original argument was that a point-to-point network has lower frequencies. I gave some counter-examples. So that argument fails. I don't think it really matters because no single airline is going to have 10 flights a day on short-haul routes AND 10 flights a day on long-haul routes unless we allow further consolidation, putting millions of airline passengers all on just two airlines, one gigantic airline and one secondary airline so that we still have "competition". Sure, the frequency of flights would go way up on UnitedSouthwestAmerican Air Lines (or USA for short ), but presumably the service of USA Air Lines would be even worse, as your choice of carrier is so low as to be near-monopoly.



I agree, that is a factor to consider. But do consider the fact that many of the destinations served by "UA" et al aren't really served by UA but rather a regional jet contractor. SWA has no RJ or contracted service which provides for a seamless travel experience. Of course, it does no good if the airport has no SWA service but only RJ's on the legacies to a hub.

I agree. This thread started in TravelBuzz and should have been left there.

Oddly enough, there is no shortage of complaints in the UA forum, basically the polar opposite of what you see in the WN forum. I think that indicates a very different level of service between the two airlines.

just trying to demonstrate that it would be very easy to identify a premium airline if such an airline exists, but because it doesn't, and can't, we have this setup where different airlines have different advantages and disadvantages depending on who you ask.

"and the like" is so I don't have to type "and Frontier, and Sun Country, and Allegiant" (or ULCC for short). SWA does not fall into this category. The ULCC nickel-and-dime you to death, and for some bizarre reason the legacies are copying this strategy while SWA carries on with it's bundled fares.

Which one and why is SWA ineligible?

Of course international is different, which is why the thread title is "in the United States".

LegalTender

Maybe on one side of the boarding door.

"Premium" amenities now mean larger bins, extra-legroom rows, power ports, interlining, strong wi-fi, seat-back video and long haul meals.

But close-in airports, no RJs and bags-fly-free compensate.

kb9522

But if you're looking for premium, you're going to be looking for an F seat... whether that's paid, upgrade, or award. The fact that the cost might be unreasonable to some is of little or no consequence to evaluation of the product itself. And certainly the experience of people sitting in basic economy is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of premium offerings.

The simplicity of the fleet is an indicator of cost cutting measures. You'll notice that LCCs and ULCCs without fail build their fleets with just one type of aircraft. When everything is standardized, costs (training and maintenance for example) are greatly reduced. When you do this though, you're not going to put, for example, lay flat seats in... It makes no sense for the short haul routes. Which means the likelihood of premium amenities is slim to none.

Sure, there will be exceptions in any case. But those exceptions can't be generalized. And certainly in the case of Southwest there are factors that would prohibit them from offering flights in similar frequency as legacy carriers in general terms... Namely the model of their routes is resource intensive.

Yes, but we can both agree that a RJ service to an obscure destination is more favorable than a long drive from the nearest SW serviced airport. We're starting to get into corner cases now though.

I think there are too many factors to consider to draw conclusions from that. But for the sake of argument... what percentage of those complaints on legacy carriers do you think come from people seated in Y? Remember, we're talking about premium offerings here...

I think you're right, it will be hard to determine which domestic US carrier provides the best (most?) premium product. You're going to try to get me to tackle that problem below, which will be fun and where I think the interesting conversation will be. But I think it's substantially less difficult to rule out the ones that do not. I believe that SW can be easily put out of the running.

Fair. I assumed "and the like" was to include LCCs like JetBlue. I agree completely that SW is well outside the ranks of Spirit, Allegiant, and other ULCCs. I don't think they're in the ranks of AA/UA/DL.

Tough to say. I fly almost exclusively AA, and DL only on rare occasions. I definitely don't think AA is the correct answer, so I'd have to say DL. I think the DL first class product is pretty far ahead of AAs from the few flights I've taken with them. I also seem to like Sky Clubs better than ACs.

SW is ineligible for all of the reasons we've been talking about over the last few posts...

toomanybooks

It's almost like different people value different things differently.

I for one am shocked.

mikesyr18

With corny jokes by the FA's, no first class, and cheaper prices... I wouldn't call that premium. If anything I've always thought of Southwest at the bottom of the list when I considered which airlines are "premium." To me it's always seemed like an airline for kids and people who rarely fly.

Bonehead

Yeah, same here. I flew WN on a devolve-equipped plane a couple years ago and was miserable (6'3", wide shoulders). No way it was better than UA E-. That was likely the last WN flight of my life. I mean come on...couple the tight seating with seat-saving shenanigans and early-boarding scammers and it's a bloody joke.

I have to laugh at some of the posters who actually buy up to "Business Select" or whatever the top tier (lol) is. For what? There is no FC, so WN cannot in any way be considered a "premium" airline. Good grief.

Peoriaman1

I used ONT as an example earlier. Its hardly an obscure destination; its THE close-in airport for San Bernardino, Palmdale, Barstow and convenient for Mojave/Rt. 66 destinations. I haven't looked lately, but United might have one (?) "regular" plane flying there. The rest are regional jets.

When I was a kid/infrequent flyer, I used to fly into LAX on United. Not any more.

EDIT: Now if only SW would service Fresno.... Sure I can fly there on a regional jet but its like $500. No thanks; I'll drive from SJC.

Peoriaman1

I laugh too. I think its for the A-1 boarding pass so they can get their one favorite seat on the plane, but if a thru passenger nabs it their trip is ruined. Well, its for the 12X points too. But when I see a big empty space between about A-3 and A-15 I know not too many people bought BS. Happens a lot.

whlinder

In terms of the standard coach class experience, WN is absolutely a premium carrier.

sdsearch

I disagree. Even though it usually works out, it's much more complicated if you want a particular seat in coach (such as only an extra legroom seat) on Southwest than on a airline where can reserve it (with status or with a fee) in advance. (Me, as a tallish person, I don't want to even reserve a flight on which I can't be assured of having an extra legroom seat.)

There's also a lot of people who might have agreed with you before "devolve", but don't agree with you since "devolve". (That's evident just by reading some post further up in this thread!)

elevatorgeek

You can frequently get an extra legroom seat without paying extra with some planning, such as booking direct flights and switching at the intermediate stop (especially a short flight followed by a longer flight). It's better for families who can board after A and find seats together easily. I just think it's designed more for the casual traveler than someone who flies every week.

Peoriaman1

What do you do if you try to reserve your one favorite seat and find someone ahead of you already reserved it? Look for a later flight which still has it available? After you make your reservation, do you check back often to make sure the airline didn't do an equipment switch?

I am convinced most of the people who want assigned seating on Southwest are doing so specifically for their need to sit in their one favorite seat, every time. Nothing else will satisfy. Their trip is ruined if they don't get that seat.

expert7700

Carriers that monetize seat selection (especially LCCs) STILL have families angry because .01% of the population seems to pick a paid pre assiged seat. EVEN on an airline like Air Canada where picking seats becomes free at t-24 online checkin. They wait to check in, often at the airport, and by then their party gets split up. Time and time again I watch carriers stop selling seats (due to sold out flight) yet the seat map indicates 90% of the seats still unassigned.

I have found that I don't mind assigned seating. Why? Once any hint of status is attained, sseat selection becomes free. As a bonus, the paid heirarchy of seats virtually ensures that I can score a bulkhead. Even if I book at the last minute or do a same day change to an earlier flight. This is an advantage that Southwest does not, and can not, currently offer. Even if I buy a $600 Business Select ticket, someone who bought a $70 ticket may trump this, by self-identifying as disability preboard, or take the better seat by being on a thru-flight and even "reserving" it for family.

Bonehead

I always considered WN's seats among the best Y seats going, until they devolved. Sad.