Boraxo

Agree 100%. Travel time at many WN airports is still the same (e.g. BUR) but has greatly improved at many places (SFO, OAK, DEN) thanks to pre-check or Clear). And yes lie-flat is mandatory now for international travel, at least for me.

WN has not done much to win the trust of customers. Devaluation of RR 2.0 is not the way to earn credibility or to incentivize Chase customers

toomanybooks

Qualifying dollars means I'll never have worthwhile status anyway with DL or UA (and soon AA, no doubt), so why bother?

AMflier

In the race to the bottom that defines domestic coach airline travel, AS, VX, B6, and WN are just racing more slowly to the bottom then the legacy and extreme LCC.

So,
Feel better: Not really
Feel less bad: Yes

no2chem

I'm not sure why people are so harsh about the WN devaluation. It's their FF program.

They can change the rules at any time. AA did just that, without notice, and it really blows. There's nothing much illegal about it either, since it's not like FF programs are regulated (and let's not see that, since I'm guessing airlines would stop FF programs if that occurred).

WN didn't change redemption values without notice, in fact, they gave everyone several months (I don't recall how many, but is seems to be more than 3) before the change took effect.

And let me cite their track record:

- When they stopped allowing name changes, on TTFs, they gave several months notice before it took effect

- When they stopped letting people no show on WGA fares, they gave several months before it took effect

- I guess you could include that they let people know ahead of time about RR2.0 as well

The airline industry is changing. Southwest is reacting to it, as they should, and even though most of the changes are devaluations of some sort, this is the norm on air carriers these days... but I still trust southwest to give us advance notice of changes, and that makes me believe that southwest is still trying really hard, as much as we dislike GK on this forum, to be a consumer-friendly airline. In the midst of these devaluations, they've at least managed to give the most advance notice of changes out of any airline, I think...

While it sucks that we haven't had a real promotion in months, that their business decision, and I'm ok with that. What I wouldn't be okay with is the sudden changes that AA put against it's FF program, since it paves the way down a very, very dark road, given that FF programs can pretty much do anything, including declaring your points null and void at anytime. FF programs rely on a element of trust between the FF and the airline, and AA screwed it up big time. I'm certainly not likely to want to fly with an airline that engages in that kind of unethical behavior, and I definitely don't want it to become some industry norm.

I think that we should encourage advance notice behavior from airlines, so I'm at least writing a letter of praise to Southwest, and I encourage others to do the same.

ursine1

My primary gripe is that, with RR2.0 redemption linked to ticket cost, the redemption ratio should not have needed to change at all. Especially so soon after introduction.

joshua362

If all your friends are jumping off the bridge but you are last to do it, does that make it right?

Yes, advance notice is nice but useless to the bank of points earned the hard way under old promises. I was not able to spend any in time so I lost completely. If 15% of your paycheck went missing, would you be upset?

no2chem

eh, the problem is that there aren't any bridges to jump to anymore, and while this bridge is wearing out (maybe the paint isn't as nice as it used to), at least it's not falling off..

look, I'm not saying the devaluations didn't suck, they did - a lot. Could southwest have chosen to do it better, by devaluing earnings instead of redemptions? probably. But I would not go as far to call what southwest did unethical, it was hardly. Just a poor business decision on their part, that will anger some customers... Will I continue to fly southwest? probably.

However, AA on the other hand, has committed something unethical, in my opinion. It made large sweeping changes, failed to notify anyone about it, and tried to disguise it as good for the FF, and on top of that they took advantage of their merger to do it. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and it worries me about the overall state of the industry. Club Carlson, I guess would be another example... The kind of large sweeping changes I'm talking about include completely eliminating awards that people might have been saving miles for years for (explorer awards).

I guess maybe the airlines are at a race to the bottom. If one airline does it, all the other airlines can go "well.. AA made unannounced devaluations, so I guess we can too"... not sure if the consumer can do anything about it, other than fight with their wallets... unfortunately, as the merger basically established even more monopolies on some routes, choice has disappeared for a lot of people...

pinniped

The airlines are just following an overall societal trend. The future is all about an increasingly-small group of global elites who control a greater and greater share of wealth. Airlines are right to focus their attention on those travelers.

The middle class is shrinking throughout the developed world. The people with discretionary income to take family vacations in coach is shrinking. Airlines are right to constrict the supply of these seats and minimize the spending on this market segment.

The heyday for our "game" (the FF game in general) was probably 5 to 15 years ago. There are still some decent "gets" out there, but they're mainly related to your engagement with the financial services industry, not so much your actual flying.

nsx

I would think that China alone is adding more people to the middle class category (that can afford to buy air tickets) than the entire rest of the world may be losing.

In the USA, even poor people can afford occasional air travel. Some people here call them Kettles, a term which I despise.

Anyway I see the opposite trend: airlines attempting to price coach as low as possible. Adding rows of seats, adding junk fees to make up for lower ticket prices, and reducing airport staffing. Southwest Airlines was created at the start of this trend some 45 years ago.

I agree with you that the gap between international first class and domestic coach, in both quality and price, is larger than it has ever been. The coach pricing trend is bringing air travel to an ever larger fraction of the world, and that's a very good thing.

As to the best times for FF program members being behind us, that's arguable. In the old days there was no way to earn 100k miles with one credit card signup, and the international premium class awards were not nearly as nice as they are now. But yeah, getting award seats without capacity controls circa 1988 was awesome.

lougord99

I am in a minority here. 99% of my air travel is for business and I pay my own way. I cheer the race to the bottom, as it means lower air fares. I am willing to suck it up and spend a hour or 2 ( I rarely travel long haul ) in uncomfortable conditions if it means that I pay a lower fare.

I will complain as much as the next guy about the downward trends, but really all I care about is low fares.

nsx

I guess that's me too. But I still prefer to spend my miles and points on something exceptionally nice rather than two somethings which are less nice.

no2chem

eh, well since airfares aren't actually getting any lower, I'm not sure there's a correlation. I think the airlines aren't exactly charities, and they just pocket the money they save. The main driver of these devaluations is the loss of competition.

Imo, there needs to be about 2x the number of commercial air carriers in the US today.

Europe is a little less than 1/2 of the land mass of the U.S. (I think?)., yet there is much more intense competition:

-AF/KLM
-Lufthansa
-TK
-Aeroflot (Well, kind of)..
-Alitalia
-Air Berlin
-Aer Lingus
- LOT
- SAS
- BA/Iberia
- Virgin Atlantic
.... list goes on, and thats not even counting LCC like easyJet and ryanAir.

In the US , we're down to maybe 4 majors,

-United
-Delta
-AA
-Alaska

the DOJ really screwed up in letting AA/US merge. With less competition, consumer benefits will only continue going down, while prices go up. maybe they should just lift the stupid rule that domestic transport be only served by american carriers...

lougord99

Not in Chicago.

I typically have 3 airlines flying non-stop to any city that I want to go to. Competition here keeps prices at their lowest.

Since I value no-change fees at $20-$40 a segment and there are no bag fees, WN continues to be the low price carrier for me.

qisu

love the no change fee, free checked luggage, and the spend based ff program (RR2.0) as that's great for earning points on business travel and redeeming on personal travel planned in advance.
SW is often not convenient for longer haul trips which usually require at least 1 connection, and the fare prices are often more expensive than legacy airlines when booking close in to travel date.

ursine1

I'm also in Chicago; I would have said the same thing a year or so ago, but I'm finding better fares occasionally on Delta and American. And I've started paying more (but not much more) for a much better experience on Virgin to LAX & SFO. In the past I wouldn't have even bothered to check other carriers.