LawFlyer

Recently, flying on the nonstop from FRA to IAH (Houston), I overheard the flight-attendants discussing two possible new routes. One is Munich to Houston, and the other is (again) regarding nonstop service from Berlin to the U.S.

As for MUC-IAH, the crew said the LH marketing and route-planners understand that much of the IAH traffic is headed to southern Germany, and that a nonstop to Munich would be quite profitable. Houston-based CO is also thought to be studying this. Has anyone else heard whether this is true?

As for Berlin to the U.S., it's still incredible that a city as large, vibrant, and important as Berlin has no nonstop service to the North America, neither the U.S. nor Canada. Doesn't it seem strange that Germany, one of the world's largest and most important economies (not to mention culturally important) has NO direct link from its capitol city to the United States? I think that's outrageous. Personally, as much as I love the people of Frankfurt, I'm really tired of changing planes at FRA when traveling to Berlin. Why isn't there more demand here??

TheProfessor

They stoped the sercive (Washington to Berlin) because there was too less demand ...

House

I could see a MUC-IAH route. Flights out of Berlin are something else though. Unfortunately Berlin is something of a victim of history on this one - LH has built up its hubs in FRA and MUC, and its business model depends on feeding transatlantic traffic through these hubs. Other cities around Germany have lost transatlantic service over the years (HAM for instance) not because there is no demand, but because the national carrier wants to build traffic at its hub.

You can see similar trends in France and the UK. BA flies transatlantic out of London, plus a single service from Manchester. Yet Manchester supports 10+ flights per day on other carriers to their US hubs, with other flights from a variety of regional airports.

In addition, demand out of Berlin for business travel is still surprisingly low. It is a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation, with major corporations refusing to move to Berlin without direct air service to places like NRT and NYC, while the airlines refuse to supply the service without some guaranteed business revenue. There is plenty of leisure demand, but that can be fed through the German hubs.

If anyone starts direct service to Berlin, it is likely to be one of the US carriers not linked into the Star Alliance (CO or DL, at a guess). If these were to do well then (and only then) LH might feel pressured into competing.

Rudi

I am not 100% sure if this is still valid today:

Legally, the USA (or may be even all 4 'occupying' countries France, Russia, UK and USA?) didn't allow any german carrier to offer scheduled international direct flights in out & of Berlin. I know that this was still legally binding 10 years ago, but not sure if that restriction lately is still valid.

Passenger_by_Passion

No, things have changed since the early nineteens...no discrimination of Lufthansa and/or other German carriers internationally in and out of Berlin anymore.
The reason, why Lufthansa does not set up non-stop international flights is just for revenue...they claim, they cannot fill C and F with paying pax.

DL had a nice non-stop connection TXL-JFK (this was a slot from former PAN-AM) until about 1998 that was very convenient and which I used a lot. It was a very fast way to virtually any place in the U.S. und changing planes was rapid compared to MUC or FRA (taken that you traveled with handluggage only). First they started to have that connection extended to Warsaw (intermediate stop in Berlin) than they just left away the stop in Berlin (reason: to little revenue from Berlin). At the same time they opened a new connection STR-JFK !

What a shame indeed! Even a little rural village as STR connected to the U.S. and the capital of Germany isolated...but as always of course: money reigns!

House

The other historical side effect of this is that LH still offers no flights between Berlin and London - not even a CRJ. BA manages to fill 3 A320's per day, plus flights by Easyjet and Air Berlin. Again, LH seems to think that its London slots are better used on flights to FRA and MUC.

cuyp

Although LH's (and therefore Star Alliance's) reliance on the FRA and MUC hubs have shut out other German cities (except DUS on Privatair business flights), it seems that the real reason for the failure of the Berlin-US routes is the struggling German economy, and the failure of Berlin development specifically. Culturally thriving, Berlin just never took off in the way everyone expected. It's hard to get there from European cities: e.g. only 2 flights a day from Rome to Berlin on Air Berlin.

Greg45

This reflects a concept that you can see with all airlines that operate hubs. LH does not want to feed someone elses hub (not even UA's and other Star partner's flights from LHR), they want passengers to connect at FRA and MUC. I would have taken UA and SQ out of LHR a number of times, if I had gotten there on a * flight, instead I was forced through FRA/MUC (or on BA )

For example BA, AF, AZ and KL operate up to 5 flights per dax to their respective hubs from Berlin. These flighs are usually full of pax checking in for long haul connections. Star alliance on the other hand does not have service to LHR and very limited service to CDG. We just paid for a separate flight TXL-CDG on AF to get to an SQ flight to SIN because LH only offered a horrible connection.

Another example is demand between TXL and MUC. The airlines without a longhaul network (gexx and dba) operate few or no flights on Sunday mornings. LH on the other hand operates a number of flights, which are usually quite empty. However, they carry connecting passengers to LH's 11:00 am departures from MUC to the U.S.

curt

Hmm, so why do HAM, HAJ, DUS, STR all have flights to LHR? HAM, for example, has 3 daily LH flights plus 4 daily BA flights. Given your logic, those LH flights shouldn't exist. Same with HAM-CDG. LH has 3 flights to CDG, AF has 5. So weakness of LH TXL flights seem to point to a weak market, not to an underlying concept.

House

To be fair, I think that both arguments are correct. BER does have a weak bsuiness passenger market, plus LH has two hubs in Germany already.

LawFlyer

I'm sure you are right, of course. But 4 of my last 5 trips to Germany this year have been to Berlin, all on business, each to take a deposition or defend a deposition. I practice international litigation, and I often meet other lawyers on flights between the U.S. and Germany. But here's the problem: Almost NONE of us stay in Frankfurt. We are all going to Berlin, where much of internaional litigation is now being conducted.

Sure, there are many tourists, as well -- and I'm sure LH can't justify direct flights from TXL to the U.S. just based on tourist traffic. But I have noticed on the Delta flights from ATL - MUC, the C and F sections are almost all upgraded tourists flying on frequent-flyer miles. But somehow, this flight continues to exist.

On a recent LH flight from IAH to FRA, I took an informal "poll" of the other passengers around me in Business Class. I found only ONE staying in/around Frankfurt. Everyone else was headed to Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, or Dusseldorf/Cologne. Sure, I understand LH's business model to feed its hubs in FRA and MUC, but I still wish we could all get to where we are actually going with direct flights.

Do you remember when CO offered nonstop service to Dusseldorf? Everytime I took this flight (about 4 or 5 times, mix of Coach and Business) it was full. And remember DL offering nonstops to Hamburg? I took that 3 or 4 times, all in Business, and very RARELY an empty seat. I don't think I'm the only American lawyer who travels often to Germany, needing to go to Berlin and Munich much more than I need to go to Frankfurt.

Besides, "most" of the people I meet up in Business class on LH between IAH and FRA are paying big fares for big business OUTSIDE of Frankfurt. Here are some recent examples: opera singers headed out to perform in Munich, Dusseldorf, Berlin, and Hannover; lawyers headed to hearings and depositions in Berlin; antique dealers heading to Munich for a dealers convention; fashion buyers headed to Dusseldorf for runway shows; aerospace industry engineers headed to Hamburg for Airbus business...and this is just a TINY sample.

This just seems like a healthy amount of demand...and we'd sure love to see nonstops come back. And frankly, if CO initiates a nonstop to MUC from IAH before LH, I'll have to give them my business. But if LH brings back TXL - U.S. flights, then LH will get my business there, too.

House

As a British lawyer who also goes to Germany on business, I can sympathise (LH does have a fairly decent network from BRU though, including TXL). Purely anecdotally, the problem lies more with clients, particularly multinationals, who get frustrated at the lack of direct links from Most are already established elsewhere in Germany and find it difficult to relocate (Berlin, for some reason i have never quite worked out, just doesn't seem appealing to a lot of my German friends as a place to settle down rather than as a place to spend a year or two).

And all this is despite an abundant (and growing) supply of modern office space at very low prices.

oliver2002

LH is driven by demand, just look at the BRU and CGN routes they have from TXL.

To be honest TXL is not built to be a intercont airport. Neither is SXF or THF. These were built keeping the special status of Berlin in mind.

Once the new BBI will be built, in whatever form, which is most likely to be in 2010, the capacity problems in FRA and MUC which will appear by then will maybe nudge LH to start a new intercont hub in Berlin. Before that I personally don't see any movement of LH. However, some US airlines will always tease the *A and start operations to BER/CGN/DUS in the peak summer seasons.

Regards Oliver

Threy

IIRC TXL-IAD was launched after some "pressure" from the government, existed for a couple of months and was ceased directly after Sep.11...

Would be interesting to get some numbers on the loads, while the service existed to base some more speculation on that.

IAH seems to be a huge market upfront, but demand in Y is more or less seasonal and not so huge.
KLM operates the Royal Dutch Shell shuttle with a 747 Combi daily and has amazing loads upfront, solid demand in the back.They just added 3 more weekly flights, IIRC on a 767.
CO joined the market about two years ago after signing a cooperation with KL and offers convenient connections for its middle-american network.

LH fares to IAD are always cheap in Y, very often in the € 299 ( net ) region and the flights is always available on ltur, so more or less two good indications for open seats in Y.Because of that I do not see a widebody going to Texas from MUC, but maybe another BBJ operated by Private Air.

LawFlyer

I took the IAD - TXL flight one time, about 2 months after it began service. It was oversold, and some Y passengers were denied boarding. Biz class was full. On my flight days, it was an A-340 in each direction with a terrific crew. I admit that I took this flight "merely" because I wanted to see it succeed, though the schedule on that particular trip was better if I had flown IAH nonstop to FRA, then shuttled up to TXL. Still, I thought it was a great service and hoped it would make it for the long-run.

On the other hand, I recently took the Private Air narrowbody from Dusseldorf to the U.S. I must say that I was really disappointed in the both the service and the quality of the plane. (And that was after my next-seat-neighbor joked that he hoped our little plane could carry sufficient gas to get to the American East Coast!) Anyway, I was so disappointed that I will definitely not take this flight again.

You are right, Threy, about the KLM flights to AMS from IAH being heavy loads. I wonder how KLM's new 767 flights are doing? I haven't heard. But as for more proof to LH to go ahead and start their contemplated IAH - MUC service: because I love the German countryside and the language, I will often fly IAH - FRA, then simply take a train to MUC or to DUS (TXL is a bit far!). Well, that last time I did this, I noticed a young German guy who had been in Houston on NASA business get off the IAH plane at FRA and get on the same two trains I did heading to MUC. And remember: I explained above that I took a poll in the Biz cabin regarding who was staying in FRA: only one!

Of course, another writer is correct that until the new airport opens in Berlin, intercontinental traffic will be hard to handle. But, even though corporations are hesitant to move back to Berlin until it has nonstops flights to Asia or the U.S., the sheer numbers of population there should create demand at some point, right? For instance, Houston has a population of roughly 4 million, but there is a LOT of trans-Atlantic service from CO, AF, LH, KLM, BA... even though there are other hubs in MIA, ERW, JFK, IAD... and I somehow feel Berlin deserves that too, and it's even larger than Houston, right?