Arizona to DHS: No REAL ID, and we mean it!
Apr 28, 2010, 5:34 pm
#121
Formerly known as billinaz
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I dont see anyone lining up to work that were born in Kansas. So should the farms crank up their pay to meet a "US Citizens" standard? Are you willing to pay the increased price for your groceries?
I see guys busting their ... in the same heat shoveling landscape rock into wheelbarrows and hauling that to someones yard. Im not talking about one or two tons. Seeing 10 to 15 tons of rock dumped in front of a house is not at all uncommon here. My house had 30 tons. Any of those caucasion? Nope.
Landscaping sucks here in the summer. Very, very few of those are caucasion. You dont think that all these guys born in Indiana are lined up to get a job, but they give the jobs to guys from Michoacan ?
I support the person who said just what it is, the jobs are pretty crappy, and those of us woh are considered caucasion and born here would do anything to avoid them. Guys from South of the border who have it MUCH worse there take the jobs and do what they need to so they can work.
Unfortunately for them, they are illegal, and use fraudulent documents to obtain that employment.
Apr 28, 2010, 5:37 pm
#122
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 315
[I]Section 287(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) was made law in the United States in 1995 as a result of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA). Section 287(g) authorizes the Federal Government to enter into agreements with state and local law enforcement agencies, permitting designated officers to perform immigration law enforcement functions, pursuant to a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA), provided that the local law enforcement officers receive appropriate training and function under the supervision of sworn U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers. Under 287(g), ICE provides state and local law enforcement with the training and subsequent authorization to identify, process, and when appropriate, detain immigration offenders they encounter during their regular, daily law-enforcement activity.[/I]
Apr 28, 2010, 5:43 pm
#123
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TB
Apr 28, 2010, 6:25 pm
#124
Formerly known as billinaz
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Precisely correct.
What does it matter if its special agent X arresting them instead of police offcer Y ?
I think everyone should stop going to the extreme of worst case scenarios and throwing out earth ending predictions.
Since the law is nothing new, just authorized for moew LEO's, I dont see any real big deal in it.
The only part I dont think is appropriate is this:
A PERSON MAY BRING AN ACTION IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY
OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
So you dont think XYZ police department is enforcing the immigration policy enough ?? Sue em!
What does it matter if its special agent X arresting them instead of police offcer Y ?
I think everyone should stop going to the extreme of worst case scenarios and throwing out earth ending predictions.
Since the law is nothing new, just authorized for moew LEO's, I dont see any real big deal in it.
The only part I dont think is appropriate is this:
A PERSON MAY BRING AN ACTION IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY
OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
So you dont think XYZ police department is enforcing the immigration policy enough ?? Sue em!
Apr 28, 2010, 6:31 pm
#125
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Perhaps you could elaborate since that's not my understanding of the program.
[I]Section 287(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) was made law in the United States in 1995 as a result of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA). Section 287(g) authorizes the Federal Government to enter into agreements with state and local law enforcement agencies, permitting designated officers to perform immigration law enforcement functions, pursuant to a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA), provided that the local law enforcement officers receive appropriate training and function under the supervision of sworn U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers. Under 287(g), ICE provides state and local law enforcement with the training and subsequent authorization to identify, process, and when appropriate, detain immigration offenders they encounter during their regular, daily law-enforcement activity.[/I]
[I]Section 287(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) was made law in the United States in 1995 as a result of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA). Section 287(g) authorizes the Federal Government to enter into agreements with state and local law enforcement agencies, permitting designated officers to perform immigration law enforcement functions, pursuant to a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA), provided that the local law enforcement officers receive appropriate training and function under the supervision of sworn U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers. Under 287(g), ICE provides state and local law enforcement with the training and subsequent authorization to identify, process, and when appropriate, detain immigration offenders they encounter during their regular, daily law-enforcement activity.[/I]
Apr 28, 2010, 6:35 pm
#126
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inquiry with AZ Board of Tourism re: documentation requirements for visitors
I come from a family that is brown-skinned. I was born in the US, and much of the rest of my family are naturalized US citizen. [...]
I would never think to carry a passport in my own country. I "sound" and "act" American, so perhaps no problem for me. What about my parents? They have accents. What about my grandmother, who would not even be able to ANSWER questions without a translator? Must she now carry a passport in AZ?
I would never think to carry a passport in my own country. I "sound" and "act" American, so perhaps no problem for me. What about my parents? They have accents. What about my grandmother, who would not even be able to ANSWER questions without a translator? Must she now carry a passport in AZ?
What type of documentation is needed to travel to and throughout Arizona?
According to the bill, the following items are acceptable forms of identification:
For more information about this issue, or to provide feedback, please visit http://azgovernor.gov/. For detailed information on the bill, visit the Arizona Legislature's SB1070 page.
According to the bill, the following items are acceptable forms of identification:
- Any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
- A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
- A valid passport.
- A valid Arizona driver license.
- A valid Arizona non-operating identification license.
For more information about this issue, or to provide feedback, please visit http://azgovernor.gov/. For detailed information on the bill, visit the Arizona Legislature's SB1070 page.
General Info
Chat Start Time: 04/28/2010 10:32:54 AM
Chat End Time: 04/28/2010 10:53:25 AM
Chat URL: http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/faqs
Referer URL: http://www.google.com/search?q=arizona tourism board&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a
Name: Visitor
Email:
Phone:
Initial Question:
Chat Transcript
[Julio] Hi, I'm Julio. How may I help you?
[Visitor] Where on the Arizona Office of Tourism Web site can I find contact information for the Arizona Office of Tourism? The word "contact" is not used on the home page at http://www.arizonaguide.com/. There is no contact page at the typical location, http://www.arizonaguide.com/contact. The site map at http://www.arizonaguide.com/site-map does not include the word "contact". I'm stumped.
[Julio] One minute please while I work on this for you.
[Visitor] Okay, thank you.
[Julio] http://azot.gov/section.aspx?sid=13&psid=0
[Julio] Its located on the bottom right hand corner under azot.gov
[Visitor] Where would I find a link to that page on http://arizonaguide.com/?
[Julio] http://arizonaguide.com/
[Visitor] Yes, that's the site I was looking at. Is there any link to AZOT contact information on that site?
[Julio] yes its located on the bottom right corner of the arizonaguide.com
[Visitor] What text is linked? I was looking for "contact" and have not found it.
[Visitor] Or are you suggesting that visitors to the site who wish to contact someone would recognize "AZOT.gov", follow that link, then search for contact information?
[Julio] Yes , I do apologize its not clear.
[Visitor] So there's no link to contact information on this site, just one to the home page for the AZOT.gov site, right?
[Julio] Correct the contact list for arizonaguide.com is under the AZOT.gov website.
[Visitor] Okay, thanks. Also, on the Arizona Office of Tourism Web site at http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-...n-requirements, there is a section with the following heading: "What type of documentation is needed to travel to and throughout Arizona?", but the information that follows does not answer the question, instead stating, "According to the bill, the following items are acceptable forms of identification:" then listing acceptable forms. There's nothing there about what documentation is required. What documentation is required?
[Visitor] I don't want to know what's acceptable, I want to know what's required.
[Maria_K] For more information on this subject you can contact Kiva Couchon (pronounced "coo shawn") her contact information is [email protected] or 602-364-3724.
[Visitor] Can you tell me what documentation is needed in order to travel to and throughout Arizona?
[Visitor] Also, what is Ms. Couchon's position?
[Maria_K] http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-...n-requirements
[Visitor] As I stated above, on the page you referenced, http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-...n-requirements, there is a section with the following heading: "What type of documentation is needed to travel to and throughout Arizona?", but the information that follows does not answer the question, instead stating, "According to the bill, the following items are acceptable forms of identification:" then listing acceptable forms. There's nothing there about what documentation is required. What documentation is required?
[Visitor] I'm not asking what is acceptable, I'm asking what is required. Can either of you tell me? Also, what is Ms. Couchon's position?
[Maria_K] There is no required documentation...... as long as you can provide one of the items listed then you'll be fine
[Maria_K] Kiva is the Communications Manager
[Maria_K] Communications and Community Development
[Maria_K] If you have any other questions please contact Kiva she will be able to better assist you
[Visitor] What happens if I cannot provide one of the items listed (i.e., what in this context does it mean to not be fine)? To whom, and under what circumstances, must I provide one of the listed items?
[Maria_K] Please contact Kiva.
[Maria_K] Thank you for contacting the Arizona Office of Tourism. Have a nice day.
Chat Start Time: 04/28/2010 10:32:54 AM
Chat End Time: 04/28/2010 10:53:25 AM
Chat URL: http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/faqs
Referer URL: http://www.google.com/search?q=arizona tourism board&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a Name: Visitor
Email:
Phone:
Initial Question:
Chat Transcript
[Julio] Hi, I'm Julio. How may I help you?
[Visitor] Where on the Arizona Office of Tourism Web site can I find contact information for the Arizona Office of Tourism? The word "contact" is not used on the home page at http://www.arizonaguide.com/. There is no contact page at the typical location, http://www.arizonaguide.com/contact. The site map at http://www.arizonaguide.com/site-map does not include the word "contact". I'm stumped.
[Julio] One minute please while I work on this for you.
[Visitor] Okay, thank you.
[Julio] http://azot.gov/section.aspx?sid=13&psid=0
[Julio] Its located on the bottom right hand corner under azot.gov
[Visitor] Where would I find a link to that page on http://arizonaguide.com/?
[Julio] http://arizonaguide.com/
[Visitor] Yes, that's the site I was looking at. Is there any link to AZOT contact information on that site?
[Julio] yes its located on the bottom right corner of the arizonaguide.com
[Visitor] What text is linked? I was looking for "contact" and have not found it.
[Visitor] Or are you suggesting that visitors to the site who wish to contact someone would recognize "AZOT.gov", follow that link, then search for contact information?
[Julio] Yes , I do apologize its not clear.
[Visitor] So there's no link to contact information on this site, just one to the home page for the AZOT.gov site, right?
[Julio] Correct the contact list for arizonaguide.com is under the AZOT.gov website.
[Visitor] Okay, thanks. Also, on the Arizona Office of Tourism Web site at http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-...n-requirements, there is a section with the following heading: "What type of documentation is needed to travel to and throughout Arizona?", but the information that follows does not answer the question, instead stating, "According to the bill, the following items are acceptable forms of identification:" then listing acceptable forms. There's nothing there about what documentation is required. What documentation is required?
[Visitor] I don't want to know what's acceptable, I want to know what's required.
[Maria_K] For more information on this subject you can contact Kiva Couchon (pronounced "coo shawn") her contact information is [email protected] or 602-364-3724.
[Visitor] Can you tell me what documentation is needed in order to travel to and throughout Arizona?
[Visitor] Also, what is Ms. Couchon's position?
[Maria_K] http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-...n-requirements
[Visitor] As I stated above, on the page you referenced, http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-...n-requirements, there is a section with the following heading: "What type of documentation is needed to travel to and throughout Arizona?", but the information that follows does not answer the question, instead stating, "According to the bill, the following items are acceptable forms of identification:" then listing acceptable forms. There's nothing there about what documentation is required. What documentation is required?
[Visitor] I'm not asking what is acceptable, I'm asking what is required. Can either of you tell me? Also, what is Ms. Couchon's position?
[Maria_K] There is no required documentation...... as long as you can provide one of the items listed then you'll be fine
[Maria_K] Kiva is the Communications Manager
[Maria_K] Communications and Community Development
[Maria_K] If you have any other questions please contact Kiva she will be able to better assist you
[Visitor] What happens if I cannot provide one of the items listed (i.e., what in this context does it mean to not be fine)? To whom, and under what circumstances, must I provide one of the listed items?
[Maria_K] Please contact Kiva.
[Maria_K] Thank you for contacting the Arizona Office of Tourism. Have a nice day.
I then e-mailed Kiva Couchon, the woman to whom Maria K. referred me, along with someone who seems to be her superior:
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:10:26 -0700
From: Phil Mocek
To: Kiva Couchon - Arizona Board of Tourism Communications and Community Development Manager <[email protected]>
Cc: Laura French - Arizona Board of Tourism Communications and Community Development Director <[email protected]>
Subject: document requirements for AZ visitors: AZOT live chat refused to answer, then disconnected me
Ms. Couchon:
Today, I attempted to locate contact information for AZOT and information about documentation requirements for Arizona visitors on the Arizona Board of Tourism Web site. Unable to do so, I used your live chat service to request assistance.
During the live chat, Julio informed me that there is no contact information on your Web site and referred me to another site where I could find it. When I asked about documentation requirements, Maria K. repeated what I had already read on your Web site and quoted to both her and Julio, told me that no documents are required, said that if I had one of the "acceptable forms of identification" I would "be fine" (implying that if I do not, I will not be fine), asked me to contact you, then hung up on me.
A copy of the transcript as mailed to me by your service is attached and included inline below. Can you provide the information I requested from Julio and Maria K.?
-------- begin included text -------------------------------------
[removed; same as quoted above in FT thread]
-------- end included text ---------------------------------------
--
Phil Mocek
Seattle, WA
From: Phil Mocek
To: Kiva Couchon - Arizona Board of Tourism Communications and Community Development Manager <[email protected]>
Cc: Laura French - Arizona Board of Tourism Communications and Community Development Director <[email protected]>
Subject: document requirements for AZ visitors: AZOT live chat refused to answer, then disconnected me
Ms. Couchon:
Today, I attempted to locate contact information for AZOT and information about documentation requirements for Arizona visitors on the Arizona Board of Tourism Web site. Unable to do so, I used your live chat service to request assistance.
During the live chat, Julio informed me that there is no contact information on your Web site and referred me to another site where I could find it. When I asked about documentation requirements, Maria K. repeated what I had already read on your Web site and quoted to both her and Julio, told me that no documents are required, said that if I had one of the "acceptable forms of identification" I would "be fine" (implying that if I do not, I will not be fine), asked me to contact you, then hung up on me.
A copy of the transcript as mailed to me by your service is attached and included inline below. Can you provide the information I requested from Julio and Maria K.?
-------- begin included text -------------------------------------
[removed; same as quoted above in FT thread]
-------- end included text ---------------------------------------
--
Phil Mocek
Seattle, WA
Apr 28, 2010, 6:42 pm
#127
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I really don't understand the uproar over this entire issue, since at first glance it seems that the authorities granted by this legislation for the most part mirror those that have been in place for decades granted to Fed LEOs tasked with immigration enforcement. Moreover, what seems to be the angst over LEOs establishing reasonable suspicion of illegal alienage without illegally profiling? BP/CPB/ICE has been rather successful in this regard for generations.
TB
TB
2. This law is a make-the-racists-happy law.
3. This law will put the state/county/local LEOs in a catch-22 situation of increasing exposure to lawsuits from: (a) people who want the state/county/local police to do more against illegal immigration; and/or (b) people who are mishandled by the police and treated as an unlawful alien when they are not.
Apr 28, 2010, 6:44 pm
#128
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TB
Apr 28, 2010, 6:53 pm
#129
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2. This law is a make-the-racists-happy law.
3. This law will put the state/county/local LEOs in a catch-22 situation of increasing exposure to lawsuits from: (a) people who want the state/county/local police to do more against illegal immigration; and/or (b) people who are mishandled by the police and treated as an unlawful alien when they are not
TB
Apr 28, 2010, 7:04 pm
#130
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Apr 28, 2010, 7:13 pm
#131
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supply and demand; all work sucks without just compensation
Just an example workers on the big farms in California - they would never get their crops off their fields without those poor mexican illegals because there isn't an American willing to bend over all day, getting their hands dirty in all kinds of weather for a minimum wage!!!
I don't doubt that, either. At the rate of pay offered, I would suspect that the only people willing to provide labor are those who have little other choice but to work for less than market rate, and that tends to be undocumented immigrants.
Say I want to buy some widgets. Should I crank up the amount I'm willing to pay for those widgets to the amount which I must pay to obtain them through legal means, or should I buy widgets from some guy who has some that he says fell off a truck? If my business relied upon this system of purchasing widgets from the black market, do you suppose I could convince people that these are goods that above-the-board businesses don't want to sell?
Yes, I am willing to pay more for food if doing so would mean that the food was not produced in a manner which sustains the black market which results in all the problems that are being discussed in this thread and blamed on Mexican immigrants. Are you willing to do so, or would you prefer to maintain the status quo?
I see guys busting their ... in the same heat shoveling landscape rock into wheelbarrows and hauling that to someones yard. Im not talking about one or two tons. Seeing 10 to 15 tons of rock dumped in front of a house is not at all uncommon here. My house had 30 tons. Any of those caucasion? Nope.
Assuming that by "sucks" you mean "is difficult or unpleasant", then I bet it sucks (unless you like physical exercise in hot weather with little responsibility, something that some people probably do like). That difficulty and unpleasantness would normally suggest that it's a rather high-paying job. Either that or it's performed by people who feel they have no other choice than to be taken advantage of, working for less than what the job is worth to the rest of us.
All work sucks. We only do it because we get something out of it. Give us enough to make up for the suckiness, and it's a good deal.
That's unfortunate for all of us. Black markets create problems. It happened with alcohol, it still happens with other drugs, and it happens with labor.
Apr 28, 2010, 7:34 pm
#132
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Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
Rather broad paintbrush, Oz.
Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
My best friend in the world, my "brother from another mother," the godfather to my children...is black. We've been tight since we met in the Army eighteen years ago. Another good friend during my service was Puerto Rican. I have many friends from my time in the Border Patrol who are Hispanic. I currently associate with a good number of various races and ethnicities that aren't pasty white like my family.
Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
You Libs love to characterize those who support the measure as rascist, but most would hardly fit that description....certainly not rascist but definitely prejudiced against those who violate the law to enter this country and rape the public benefits meant for those citizens and lawful immigrants.
ROTFLOL Then, talk about clueless and irrelevant. You might as well call me a "neo-con". Racists support the measure, and there is no getting around that.
What makes you so sure that most of this AZ law's supporters would hardly have a racist bone in their body? Admitting racism is less the norm than it used to be in the US. Instead now we get more people playing the "I cannot be racist because I've been friendly with (and/or am related to and/or hiring) XYZ" and using that as a cover while still having racist attitudes. Even the notorious David Duke started playing that fiddle.
Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
LEOs are, or should be, rather used to that conundrum.
How much money and time is AZ going to spend on sending more than a token number of LEOs for a 4-week working/training paid sabbatical to South Carolina?
Apr 28, 2010, 8:15 pm
#133
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Couldnt you have used ANYTHING other than widgets in your example?
The college flashback hurt!
The college flashback hurt!
Apr 28, 2010, 8:37 pm
#134
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Apr 28, 2010, 9:19 pm
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