QF good at upgrading its Plats?

Old Jan 21, 2008, 12:27 pm
  #61  
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Welcome to Flyer Talk drsmithy

If you are referring to the incremental cost of food and beverage you might be right (then again some FTers can drink much more than this on longhaul flights ).

However, the cost to QF is not just better quality food and drinks. There is also a ongoing revenue impact. By being stingy with upgrades QF ensures that more passengers pay for business or first class than would otherwise be the case. That has a very real and large impact. Witness the difference in the profitability of QF and other major asia-pacific airlines compared with US-based airlines - at least some of that is due to the high revenue from the premium cabins on QF (and mainly awards and upgraders on US-based airlines). This also affects the quality of the premium cabins - QF has much better business and first class than the likes of United or American. One reason is they can afford to provide better seats, IFE, etc from the high revenue of that cabin.

Further, by not upgrading willy nilly, in the event not all seats sell out it provides a better experience for those who have paid many thousands of dollars for the premium cabin. This is a much better experience than being in a premium cabin that is full due to upgrading pax.
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 1:50 pm
  #62  
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Originally Posted by drsmithy
It's difficult to see how the additional cost to the airline of a single existing passenger flying in J instead of Y (assuming they aren't displacing another fare-paying J) even constitutes as a rounding error, in the context of a whole flight's revenue (I'd be astounded if it was even $100).

I think the point there is how ridiculously stingy it was of QF not to upgrade.
Welcome to FT as well drsmithy! Kiwi raises a very good point. Almost every flight with AA I have taken I have found F or C to be completely full. And almost everyone I talked to had only paid for economy.
But because everyone is getting eVIPs, complimentary upgrades etc. people only book economy because they know there is a high chance for upgrading into a higher cabin.
I would never risk to book economy on QF and hope for an upgrade. So this is why I am spending $$$ on QF but would only spend $ on AA.
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 2:07 pm
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The mysteries of what prompts a random op-up can be boggling! My young daughter, a oneworld Sapphire, was once op-upped on a flight from SYD to LAX a few days after befriending a girl her age that she had met during an art gallery visit. That girl just happened to be the daughter of a QF CSM! My daughter mentioned to the girl that she was heading back to So. California on a specific date and on the date of travel, while my daughter was inside the Qantas Club as a oneworld Sapphire, she was called to the desk to find that she had been upped!

I've never been op-upped by QF, but have been many times by CX, BA & AA.

*

Last edited by prspad; Jan 21, 2008 at 4:09 pm Reason: correct error
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 2:33 pm
  #64  
 
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Originally Posted by prspad
The mysteries of what prompts a random op-up can be boggling! My young daughter, a oneworld Sapphire, was once op-upped on a flight from SYD to LAX a few days after befriending a girl her age that she had met during an art gallery visit. That girl just happened to be the daughter of a QF CSM! My daughter mentioned to the girl that she was heading back to So. California on a specific date and on the date of travel, while my daughter was inside the Qantas Club as a oneworld Sapphire, she was called to the desk to find that she had been upped!

I've never been op-upped by QF, but have been many times by CP, BA & AA.

*
CP? They have been gone a very long time now!
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 5:56 pm
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Mel/Akl

Last week's trip was as follows:

- Kerbside First class check-in (my first time)
- Upgrade to J
- The lovely First class lounge
- Upgrade to J on the return

All in all a pretty impressive package for an economy fare which left me feeling that Platinum status was pretty handy.
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 9:01 pm
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Originally Posted by prspad
The mysteries of what prompts a random op-up can be boggling! My young daughter, a oneworld Sapphire, was once op-upped on a flight from SYD to LAX a few days after befriending a girl her age that she had met during an art gallery visit. That girl just happened to be the daughter of a QF CSM! My daughter mentioned to the girl that she was heading back to So. California on a specific date and on the date of travel, while my daughter was inside the Qantas Club as a oneworld Sapphire, she was called to the desk to find that she had been upped!

I've never been op-upped by QF, but have been many times by CX, BA & AA.

*
Ah yes and this upgrade ofcourse had no cost whatsoever!
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 9:11 pm
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Originally Posted by Kiwi Flyer
Welcome to Flyer Talk drsmithy

If you are referring to the incremental cost of food and beverage you might be right (then again some FTers can drink much more than this on longhaul flights ).

However, the cost to QF is not just better quality food and drinks. There is also a ongoing revenue impact. By being stingy with upgrades QF ensures that more passengers pay for business or first class than would otherwise be the case. That has a very real and large impact. Witness the difference in the profitability of QF and other major asia-pacific airlines compared with US-based airlines - at least some of that is due to the high revenue from the premium cabins on QF (and mainly awards and upgraders on US-based airlines). This also affects the quality of the premium cabins - QF has much better business and first class than the likes of United or American. One reason is they can afford to provide better seats, IFE, etc from the high revenue of that cabin.

Further, by not upgrading willy nilly, in the event not all seats sell out it provides a better experience for those who have paid many thousands of dollars for the premium cabin. This is a much better experience than being in a premium cabin that is full due to upgrading pax.
Prima facie this makes sense. BUT, what it assumes is that QF management is infinitely better than AA management, and AA management does not really understand how to make money. It assumes that AA management has decided to implement their operations in such a way that they don't maximise revenue and customer loyalty. Remember this is a company which eliminated 1-2 olives per serving in order to save on fuel costs. I can't see how they did not do a cost/benefit analysis of various upgrade policies and decided to go with the current regime because it was the optimal one given their environment constraints. I really can't see how they want to give us all upgrades no matter the cost
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 9:21 pm
  #68  
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sure - and AA is in a different marketspace from QF, which is partly my point

by not setting those kind of upgrade offers and managing passenger expectations the asia-pacific airlines are not in a cut-throat race to the bottom (granted there are issues in some markets about competing with LCCs and the existence of protected markets)

on the whole US legacy carriers are not doing well financially, at least compared with many other major carriers elsewhere

anyway, I'm no expert but just wanted to point out it isn't as straightforward as a statement "upgrades have minimal cost" may appear
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 10:30 pm
  #69  
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Originally Posted by alect
I can't see how they did not do a cost/benefit analysis of various upgrade policies and decided to go with the current regime because it was the optimal one given their environment constraints. I really can't see how they want to give us all upgrades no matter the cost
I posit that the analysis was that given the other US domestic carriers also offering free/cheap upgrades to "elite" ( what is elite about having sat in a plane I wonder though ) members, that if they were to go away from the upgrade candy jar, they would lose lots of their "loyal" members to the competition.

I suspect that if they thought that they could wean people off of expecting something for nothing , that they would

Dave
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Old Jan 21, 2008, 10:41 pm
  #70  
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Originally Posted by alect
Prima facie this makes sense. BUT, what it assumes is that QF management is infinitely better than AA management, and AA management does not really understand how to make money....
QF management has made some very good decisions indeed and I think AA has made some not so clever ones.
But, both carriers operate in a very different marketplaces. The competitive landscape in the US is very different than in Australia or other countries.

In most other countries governments have helped one main carrier to become strong (QF, LH, AF etc.). In the US, the government repeatedly has subsidized all airlines but only to the degree that they don't collapse. So they all lack the funds for new equipment and investments.
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Old Jan 22, 2008, 12:36 am
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On my last long haul with QF (LAX-SYD in Y....) I was at the airport rather early as a result of rental car issues.... I was actually surprised to find staff at the QF desks (well.. one young guy) that early AND prepared to check me in.... So far so good...

After we dealt with my "restricted goods".. a process that takes bit more time and tends to result in more conversation.. I asked.. (without any real expectation) about an exit row seat..

He said "Sure".. and printed out a BP for an exit row aisle...^

So far very bloody good indeed.

Boarded.. and joined my exit row seatmates... we grinned at each other and shared the expecation of a comfortable flight...

Bloody good indeed.....

At which point it all went pear shaped. A FA informed us they "had a problem".. A POS who "couldn't fit in their seat"

Long story short.. moved by the crew from the exit aisle to a middle bulkhead. (After that 14 hour flight I am mystified as to what anyone sees in bulkhead seats!)

I can understand revenue protection.. I can understand protecting the premium cabins... I understand that I WAS still in the type of seat I had paid for..

BUT... Having "got in early", made the effort and specifically requested a decent seat..... to go from that best possible seat to one that I found more than a little uncomfortable... to make way for someone else who had it must be remembered only paid for a "normal" Y seat as well seemed pretty unfair to me... and left a bad taste...

Yes, I did suggest being moved forward might be a nice gesture - even doing so AFTER the meal service and after the lights had been dimmed would have been great..... sue me for suggesting that! (Or they could have moved Mr BIG quietly and left us alone...) but no..... "there's your new seat"

There is a lot of talk here on FT about seat swap requests... many folks (rightly in my view) say they will only swap for "equal or better"...

And when the Cabin crew are the ones to move you? And it's not "equal or better"? And you really don't feel (because it's the crew) that you can "just say no!"?

It MAY be unreasonable.. but that was the incident that pushed me to flying NZ from then on...
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Old Jan 22, 2008, 10:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
I posit that the analysis was that given the other US domestic carriers also offering free/cheap upgrades to "elite" ( what is elite about having sat in a plane I wonder though ) members, that if they were to go away from the upgrade candy jar, they would lose lots of their "loyal" members to the competition.

I suspect that if they thought that they could wean people off of expecting something for nothing , that they would

Dave
Precisely (combined with an analysis of how many people are actually willing to pay for premium seats) - so let's not minimise this cost either.
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Old Jan 22, 2008, 10:06 pm
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Originally Posted by trooper

It MAY be unreasonable.. but that was the incident that pushed me to flying NZ from then on...
I don't think you were unreasonable - I think unless there is a safety issue I would be pretty adamant that I would not move. In fact having a POS in an exit row could be a safety risk in itself as they may not be able to move fast enough in an emergency situation. If the POS thinks they need an exit row they can make the effort as you did (accidently or not) of getting one - I don't think it's fair they just turn up, get whatever seat and then onboard complain that they want a more roomy seat
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Old Jan 22, 2008, 10:07 pm
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Originally Posted by trooper
At which point it all went pear shaped. A FA informed us they "had a problem".. A POS who "couldn't fit in their seat"

Long story short.. moved by the crew from the exit aisle to a middle bulkhead. (After that 14 hour flight I am mystified as to what anyone sees in bulkhead seats!)
Sad to hear your story but I am confused as usual. A POS could not fit into a middle bulkhead seat yet could fit into an exit row aisle seat. I thought these were exactly the same size seats with the fixed armrests and the tray table in the armrest.
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Old Jan 22, 2008, 10:10 pm
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A good example of this competition relates to fuel fines in the US. Over the last few weeks both UA and AA have tried to increase them but have had to backtrack.

See this thread:
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