ufoken

I have been flying with MH on BKK-KUL and got credited with 749 Miles and 10 SC for discount economy (40 for J class)

I have recently found out that this flight is over 750 Miles and should be credited as 15 SC. (60 for J class)

The following link is used by the qantas calculator

https://services.unique.qantas.com/c...ate=2015-08-13

(The result is a JSON format, although you may not know what is JSON, but you can simply read it)

This URL shows: "distance_base":758.5545482484698, which I believe this is worked out by a standard formula for the distance between two airports. However, it has only credit 749 miles.

I have contacted to the FF centre, the operator (I believe he is a supervisor) has emphasised the flight works out as 749 miles and it worth only 10 SC, and blamed the website team who made the mistake of showing distance_base with "incorrect" figure.

However, the operator was unable to provide the formula or method to work out 749 miles for this route, while he has also tried with an independent website which shows it is more than 750 miles. He has denied this independent website figure is correct, but still emphasising the flight has been credited correctly as 749 mile with 10 SC.

I have also done a lots of research, all of those tools I have used are showing this route is over 750 miles, including the figure from GDS. Here are some of the example

http://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/...oute=WMKK-VTBS showing 1214KM = 754 Miles
http://www.flightmanager.com/ showing Distance: 655.91 (NM) / 754.96 (MI) / 1,214.74 (KM)
http://www.travelmath.com/flying-dis...rom/KUL/to/BKK showing 754 miles / 1 213 km
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/kul-to-bkk/ showing
"The flight distance from Kuala Lumpur International Airport (KUL) to Suvarnabhumi Airport (BKK) is 758 miles (1220 kilometers, 659 nautical miles)."
http://www.distance.to/Bkk/Kul Showing 758.39 Mi
http://www.gcmap.com/dist?P=KUL-BKK shows 754 mi
https://airport.api.aero/airport/dis...284&units=mile shows 754 mi
http://www.expertflyer.com/, which is showing the information from GDS also showing 754 mi


I have also tried with other airlines calculators, all of them are showing the flight is over 750 miles but haven't seen one under 750. Other professional website for pilots use are also showing the flight is over 750 miles.

I do believe it must be chances that they have amended this flight to be under 750 miles in order to make it fall into 501-750 miles bracket. Therefore less SC points will be given.

Frankly, a few miles difference would not change much on the actual points collection, but it does mean a lot as it is crossing the threshold.

Has anyone else been experienced with something similar?
Does anyone know how actually they do the calculation?

Wish to hear from your thought.

Thanks you

Here is the result from the URL which is used by QF point calculator.

Actually means that they accept the fact that the distance is 758 miles from calculation but only giving away 749


{"points":[{"sector":"International","profile_zone_descriptio n":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","fare_type_name":"Discount Economy","origin":"BKK","use":["{\"trip_type\"=>\"One Way\", \"miles\"=>14000, \"award_type\"=>\"Partner\"}","{\"trip_type\"=>\"R eturn\", \"miles\"=>30000, \"award_type\"=>\"oneworld\"}"],"type":"detail","status_credits":10,"destination" :"KUL","zero_earn":"N","fare_type":"K","distance":749,"fare_class":"Discount Economy","base":188,"route_category":"Internationa l Routes","loyalty_earn_category":"Discount Economy","zone_description":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","zone":6,"min_of_base_and_ecoflex":188,"mpg ":0,"base_plus_cabin_bonus":188.0,"eco_flex":749," status_tier_cabin_bonus":0.0,"earn":188.0,"cabin_b onus":0.0,"status_tier":"Bronze","debug_route_info ":{"sector":"International","segment_group":6,"ind ex":"MHMHBKKKUL","profile_zone_description":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","origin":"BKK","origin_region":"South East Asia","type":"route","destination":"KUL","origin_c ountry":"TH","loyalty_earn_categories":["Business","Economy","First","Discount Economy"],"distance":749,"owner_airline":"MH","destination_ region":"South East Asia","destination_country":"MY","override":"Y","z one_rule":"Use Segment","carrier":"MH","route_category":"Internat ional Routes","distance_base":758.5545482484698,"zone_description":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","zone":6}},{"sector":"International","profi le_zone_description":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","fare_type_name":"Economy","origin":"BKK"," use":["{\"trip_type\"=>\"One Way\", \"miles\"=>14000, \"award_type\"=>\"Partner\"}","{\"trip_type\"=>\"R eturn\", \"miles\"=>30000, \"award_type\"=>\"oneworld\"}"],"type":"detail","status_credits":20,"destination" :"KUL","zero_earn":"N","fare_type":"Y","distance": 749,"fare_class":"Economy","base":749,"route_categ ory":"International Routes","loyalty_earn_category":"Economy","zone_de scription":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","zone":6,"min_of_base_and_ecoflex":749,"mpg ":0,"base_plus_cabin_bonus":749.0,"eco_flex":749," status_tier_cabin_bonus":0.0,"earn":749.0,"cabin_b onus":0.0,"status_tier":"Bronze"},{"sector":"Inter national","profile_zone_description":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","fare_type_name":"Business","origin":"BKK", "use":["{\"trip_type\"=>\"One Way\", \"miles\"=>26000, \"award_type\"=>\"Partner\"}","{\"trip_type\"=>\"R eturn\", \"miles\"=>60000, \"award_type\"=>\"oneworld\"}"],"type":"detail","status_credits":40,"destination" :"KUL","zero_earn":"N","fare_type":"C","distance": 749,"fare_class":"Business","base":937,"route_cate gory":"International Routes","loyalty_earn_category":"Business","zone_d escription":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","zone":6,"min_of_base_and_ecoflex":749,"mpg ":0,"base_plus_cabin_bonus":937.0,"eco_flex":749," status_tier_cabin_bonus":0.0,"earn":937.0,"cabin_b onus":0.0,"status_tier":"Bronze"},{"sector":"Inter national","profile_zone_description":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","fare_type_name":"First","origin":"BKK","us e":["{\"trip_type\"=>\"One Way\", \"miles\"=>38000, \"award_type\"=>\"Partner\"}","{\"trip_type\"=>\"R eturn\", \"miles\"=>90000, \"award_type\"=>\"oneworld\"}"],"type":"detail","status_credits":60,"destination" :"KUL","zero_earn":"N","fare_type":"A","distance": 749,"fare_class":"First","base":1124,"route_catego ry":"International Routes","loyalty_earn_category":"First","zone_desc ription":"OTH PARTNER FLTS 501-750 MILES","zone":6,"min_of_base_and_ecoflex":749,"mpg ":0,"base_plus_cabin_bonus":1124.0,"eco_flex":749, "status_tier_cabin_bonus":0.0,"earn":1124.0,"cabin _bonus":0.0,"status_tier":"Bronze"}],"loyalty_earn_categories":[{"code":"discounteconomy","name":"Discount Economy"},{"code":"economy","name":"Economy"},{"co de":"business","name":"Business"},{"code":"first", "name":"First"}]}

Exec_Plat

When QF does a calculation looking at MPM or some other reason they need to know flight miles, what number do they use?

While they may be 'wrong', they get to decide...perhaps if you can show that somewhere else they use a different number, ideally that other place is more 'official' than the FF program.

Maybe book something that includes that segment and ask QF what th segment miles and total miles are, see if you can get them to document that somewhere. Hard for them to say "to calculate official fare we use 758 but for the FF program we use 749."

SeriouslyLost

At one point in the (dim distant) part the website and programme materials stated they used the Great Circle method to calculate distances. No idea if they still say that. Sites that calculate the number usually use the same method and the only variation on the result would come from using a different base map projection from one another - which would be unusual these days. Given that Qantas has always had numbers lower on key sectors than the GC mappers show I'd always assumed they simply fudged the numbers. It was too consistent an error that always shaved some miles off and I'd bet money to pounds it's intentional to save them some points/money/benfits.

If it was the US I'd be surprised they weren't sued long ago for it. Harder to do in Oz, but if you can get them to admit the *method* they use then you can force them to apply the method accurately, assuming you feel the time and effort is worth it.

bricksoft

It would be interesting to see if flights with a similar distance in the calculator, ie just under 750 miles also show as just over 750 in the other tools used by OP

Also are there other key distances used in the QF calculator that have filghts a few miles short of the "official" figures.

Whatever the results of additional checks, either a consistent adding of a few miles for flights on the boundary or just this one route (BKK-KUL) being wrong, you need to consider what you will gain by all the checking involved.

Is the effort worth it? Will QF change their calculator if someone demonstrates a consistent fudging of flight lengths for flights at the calculator boundaries?

peterjloh

Of course it's Qantas taking liberties to enforce status credit brackets to their own advantage.

Routes of similar distance on the oneworld network are:

- ITM-OKA - JL - 753mi
- IST-AMM - RJ - 755mi
- MUC-PMI - AB - 758mi
- CLT-XNA - US - 754mi
- CLT-YOW - US - 752mi
- GIG-SSA - JJ - 754mi

They all earn 15 status credits for Discount Economy.

jridge

For example, webflyer shows 743:

http://webflyer.com/travel/mileage_c...&ticket_price=

For example, BA 748, Thai Airways 735:

http://www.thaiairways.com/frequent-...eage-chart.htm

Asia Miles 731:

https://www.asiamiles.com/am/en/earn/aircalculator

The first three I tried were all under 750. Come on.

However, the bottom line is not whether they are under or over 750, but that they are all different since each airline uses its own method. Some airlines use the distance between airports, some use the distance between the city centre. Probably some airlines still use DMK in their calculations, who knows.

My thought says let it be and move on.

og

It's not worth the stress. There are lots of examples where you are screwed by being just under the cut-off level. Equally there are plenty of examples which are just over. When award flights used the same mileage cut-off levels, it softened the pain.

ufoken

I have just checked with BA , they have the same calculation for all other routes I have tested (except maybe a small decimal difference that would case 1-2 miles difference). If using DMK, then it would be much further, DMK is much north-er than BKK. I have not tried with Thai, but interested to know about webflyer. I believe GDS is the most standard way and should be used as reference.

ufoken

Wouldn't GDS is not good enough?

Dave Noble

Trouble is that what you believe the airline should do is irrelevent

What matters is what it does do; as long as the airline is consistent in that redemptions are calculated in same way as earnings, I don't see how there is anything unfair/unreasonable in how the airline is calculating it where there are small discrepencies

Also, iirc, it is the carrier marketing the flight which determines the distance and would be MH which would have determined the distance

If you have been credited in accordance with the distance used for that journey, you have been correctly credited and nothing more to do

The standard way of crediting/charging is by that which the airline has stored for that flight, not what a customer would like it to be

Platy

So...if you are correct...theotically you could get different miles/credits for the same flight depending from which carrier you bought the ticket although crediting the same FF scheme...

...are you sure it isn't the airline to which you assign the FF number which determines the distance (and thus point/status credit earn?

Dave Noble

I am moderately sure that the airline marketing the flight is the one responsible for determining how many points it wishes to give for a flight to an FF scheme

If it was the operating carrier , the same issue would apply in that it could again be different based on carrier used

I don't think that it is the airline operating the FF scheme which determines how many points that the marketing carrier has to class the distance to be

madrooster

This isn't correct. AA's ORD-MIA route is 1198 miles or so under AA's program but 1204 when credited to QFF. 1200 being the old zone 3 threshold made this route a good earner but poor for redemptions.

Kiwi Flyer

This is incorrect. The marketing carrier determines how much $ to pay the FF scheme. The FF scheme determines how many points for redemption & status to provide.

Think about all the fares that credit to the home FF in full (or small discount) that credit nothing (or very high discount) to other FFs.

thadocta

Whilst I agree with you that it is the home FF program that determines the credit, it is the operating airline that determines whether or not there is actually a payment - it is classed as a commission, namely whether airline XX will pay airline YY for a YY member to use XX, airline XX determines the fare classes that are eligible, etc. All XX does is determine if the flight is eligible, they then send the details across that the member travelled from YYY to ZZZ, it is then up to YY to determine how much to pay.

Dave