number_6

The rule of thumb is that AAdvantage is worth double compared to QFF (in terms of earn/burn for awards -- ignoring status benefits such as AC access which can be worth a few hundred dollars). But this isn't universally true, both plans have strengths and weaknesses, which sometimes makes QFF better than Aadvantage.

Sometimes QFF has superior earn and burn than Aadvantage. Don't believe me? Take one of the busiest routes in the world (busier than any US city-pair): SYD-MEL. Costs 8K on QFF, 10K on Aadvantage as a Y award, 16K on QFF and 17.5K on Aadvantage as a J award. But AAdvantage has superior earn -- right? Not if you fly SYD-MEL (or lots of other QF routes, esp. on discounted fares).

So, sometimes QFF actually earns and burns 25%+ better than Aadvantage. Of course these are rare, but they exist (and are for frequently used routes, so not pedantic examples). What is different is that Aadvantage offers many more ways to game the system than QFF (or BAEC or any other Oneworld plan), for both earn and burn. Hence its popularity on FT. But in my opinion QFF is a fair plan that works very well for short economy awards, and progressively less well for longer and more premium awards. It certainly places a much greater premium on F awards than Aa (perhaps reflecting the F quality on AA).

drewbles

Also, don't forget fuel fines. AA's fuel fines are far lower. I would also hazard a guess and say that most people are not redeeming points for MEL-SYD-MEL return flights and vice versa.

In general, not taking elite status into consideration, AAdvantage is a far superior program for earn/burn, providing you fly in the right fare class obviously.

If I did more overseas travel, i'd be using AA rather than QF, but alas most my flying is domestic, with the regular status run to keep WP starting from March next year of course

docbert

You're just looking at the burn part - don't forget the earn bit too...

With Qantas you're going to have to get to the top FF level (Platinum) to get 100% bonus miles, whereas with AA you only need to get to the middle level (Platinum, too.. go figure) to get 100% bonus miles.

If you were the middle level in each program (QF Gold, AA Platinum), you'd need to fly 5333 miles with Qantas to get the 8k miles needed for SYD-MEL (with a 50% bonus), whereas with AA you'd need to fly only 5000 miles to get the 10k miles needed for the same flight (with a 100% bonus).

With AA, two or three return trips SYD-NYC in discount economy would get you to AA Platinum (depending on whether you did it during Double EQM or not). With QF you'd need up to 6 return SYD-NYC to get to Gold.

Of course then there's the minimum miles earnt per flight, the (very) different means of reaching status, and a few dozen other things that vary between the two. For the right flying and redemption patterns I don't doubt that QF could come out on top - but for most of us AA is going to win.

serfty

With your example, you do not note the minimum 1000 QFF points on QF flights.

4 MEL-SYD returns on Qantas will earn that 8K QFF points for 1 economy award redemeption for MEL-SYD one-way (including E, N and Q classes) - any status.

5 MEL-SYD returns (in O, V, S or better) credited to AA will earn that 10K for an AA PLAT, if not an AA plat it may take MUCH more, especially in the lower classes.

Of course that same 10K AAdvantage points will get one from PER to AKL ...

In my case as a WP, who rarely redeems points for Award flights then QFF is slightly better.

YMMV.

futaris

Don't forget that sometimes an AAdvantage redemption is cheaper than a QANTAS Upgrade.

e.g. SYD-LAX-JFK or SYD-SIN-LHR will cost 96k to upgrade disc economy to business. Of course if you're WP, you should earn ~22k back, so assuming the upgrade goes thru, it will cost you ~74k out-of-pocket for a J upgrade. If you want F, you'd earn ~28k in J as a WP, so it'd still cost ~32k out-of-pocket.

Redeem on AA, and it'll cost you 62.5k in J, 72.5k in F to JFK, or 60k in J, 80k in F to LHR. Granted you might not earn as quick, but at least the seat is guaranteed.

If you're on the cheapest of cheap fares, credit QFF. If you're flying J or F, credit QFF. Otherwise, you're definitely going to get better value from AAdvantage. If you fly DONE* or AONE*, you're probably better with QFF (for the SCs)...

NM

While that may be true, I doubt many people would choose to redeem points for such a route when discounted fares can generally be found to be better value.

I know when Mrs NM was wanting to travel BNE-MEL (same costs as you have identified), I chose to purchase a commercial fare - albeit from DJ. However, when Min NM#1 was going to PER to visit his cousin, 20K AA miles was more attractive to me than purchasing a commercial ticket or using my QF FF points.

But as always, each situation will be different and needs to be evaluated in its own right.

docbert

Unless they are the cheapest of cheap AA fares, in which case they give 0% miles to QF, in which case obviously crediting to AA is better.

NM

Yesterday I did a quick comparison based on my flying this year and how this pattern would affect earning status in each of AAdvantage and Qantas Frequent Flyer. Obviously this is just based on my specific flying pattern this year, but as it is based on my actual flights are fares purchased, it is a real example and not just an extreme possibility.

This is all based on the calendar year, even though my QF anniversary in October.

I did no flying in the first half of the year. From August to the end of November I will have six return trips to Hong Kong, some with side trips to Kuala Lumpur/Singapore.

Five trips were using BLFF fares (with one HKG-MEl booked in T) and one trip was YLFF fare basis.

On QFF I would have earned 730 Status Credits, enough for Gold status (outright or renewal), but not enough for Platinum status. I already have lifetime gold, so would not have helped my anyway. As a Gold FF I would have earned 101,882 QF FF points, including one loyalty bonus.

On AAdvantage, I earned 100,051 EQP, tipping me over the Executive Platinum threshold again. As an EXP, I earned 131,624 redeemable miles and another 8 EVIPs.

During that period I also made a redemption for Mrs NM and myself. We fly CX business class BNE-HKG-KUL, then CX business class KUL-HKG connecting to CX First Class HKG-BKK, then BA First Class BKK-SYD connecting with QF Business Class SYD-BNE. This cost me 360,000 AA miles and $341.28 in taxes. Qantas redemption for the same itinerary would have been 568,000 QFF points and something in the order of $750 in taxes and fuel fines.

As I noted, these are real examples of my FF activity this year, not hypothetical examples selected to make a specific point. Obviously other people's situations will be different due to different travel patterns.

serfty

From the first post to the most recent post of this thread it is "written" that AAdvantage is generally better than QFF for earn and award flight burn.

og

Except for that critical award availability window for QF FFers that opens a month before AA and other OWers get to the award seats. This is a real benefit to those who plan ahead.

NM

True, but if you later want to make a change, its going to cost you either 2500 point revalidation fee or a 5000 points cancellation fee.

On the AAward I mentioned above, I made a routing change and changed from a OneWorld F award as originally booked to a series of 3 one-way awards (one J and 2 F). There was no cancellation fee, no change fee (financial or miles). In fact, making the change to 3 x one-way awards reduced the miles needed and I was given a refund. The original booking was made as a OneWorld award before AA introduced OneWay awards.

The EXP AAgent even held the award seats from the original itinerary (the last 5 legs remained the same flights as originally booked, just changed the first flight from BNE-MEL-HKG to BNE-HKG) so I would not lose the availability in the change process.

The flexibility to make changes to award bookings can be a benefit of similar value to the early QFF benefit of access to QF award inventory. But in my case the only QF flight in the booking was a SYD-BNE and finding award space on that route was never going to be an issue. But your example does show where it is of value for QFF.

So as always, there is no catch-all answer. It depends on your circumstances and requirements/goals. Having a good balance of QFF points and lifetime gold status goes help with QF flight upgrades too , just as having a healthy EVIP balance helps with AA upgrades (not that I have taken any AA flights this year).

DownUnderFlyer

AA has by far the better program if you are after cheap award flights and you make your miles/points by flying. I guess nobody will dispute this.

And for everyone who is after this, AA is the right program.

So why do I stay with QF then?

- Because with one DONE4 I get Platinum and Mrs. DUF gets Gold
- Because if there is no award seat on a QF plane, QF will make one for me
- Because I and Mrs DUF get lounge access even in the US without having to spend extra money.
- Because when something goes wrong, QF has looked after me very well, before they took care of other elites.

I make by orders of magnitude more QFF points through other means than flying. So the earn/burn rate is irrelevant for me. In addition, most of my international award travel is with *A anyway as I have more miles there and the award choices are greater. So most of my points I spend on domestic awards.

number_6

My point is that while in aggregate AA is a better plan for most things, even its strongest feature is sometimes weaker than QFF! My example of SYD-MEL was not contrived; I actually needed to redeem that award (and earn on that route); much to my surprise QFF is superior to Aadvantage on that route (and it is a somewhat significant route, one of the 10 busiest in the world, so hardly a contrived example). My feeling is that for 10% of award redemptions QFF is actually cheaper than Aadvantage ... it really varies a lot by the specific details. For people trying to decide which is the best plan to join, it isn't an easy decision. QFF is more competitive than it sometimes seems on FT! I actually think it is a pretty good plan, better than average, with a good mix of benefits (some stated on this thread). Also, AA does charge fees for changes to awards, but the fees are waived for EXP (and maybe Plat, don't remember any more) -- so NM is quite right that there were no fees for his trip changes, but QFF also waives fees for WP so I am not sure that there really is a difference there. AA also charges fees for awards redeemed within 7 days of travel, for using an agent for redemption (even if online redemption is not possible), etc. so really no better than QFF for fees.

whughes3

There is no question that AA provides better "earn/burn" ratios than QFF; however, there is equally no question that AA does not (and presumably cannot) provide greater numbers of award seats to match the resulting increased demand. This makes the alleged benefits rather problematic. Of course, there is no doubt that a fortunate few who are knowledgeable and resourceful can do very nicely out of the AA scheme; but only at the expense of a much larger number who do rather badly.

DownUnderFlyer

Thanks for pointing this out. QF awards will always be efficient when you are working on the fringes of distance brackets and some other specialties. But you are right, this will be in about 10% of the cases. Your LAX-LHR in J will always be better via AA.