TSA & Currency Control
#151
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,849
Bad form to imply that people who don't agree with your opinion of this are irrationtal.
Some TSA do-gooder thought he made a big catch with what turned out to be flour filled condoms. She was subsquently arrested and held for 3 weeks until they determined the condoms were flour.
Some TSA do-gooder thought he made a big catch with what turned out to be flour filled condoms. She was subsquently arrested and held for 3 weeks until they determined the condoms were flour.
#152
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BOS and vicinity
Programs: Former UA 1P
Posts: 3,725
Google "Cheye Calvo dogs" or take a look at this article. Cops raided a guy's house (happened to be the mayor), slaughtered his two dogs (labs, not exactly an aggressive breed) while the dogs were running away from the cops (dogs were shot in the back and in the hind legs), spread dog blood all over the house, and held the mayor and his mother-in-law at gunpoint for several hours while one of the detectives laughed and joked on her cell phone while she made an appointment for one of her own dogs. It turned out the household was completely innocent.
The text of the warrant acknowledged that there was a good chance it was the wrong house (drug smugglers frequently ship drugs to innocent parties and intercept the package before delivery). The warrant did not justify no-knock procedures. The cops refused to apologize, refuse to release the internal report on the incident, and refuse to name the jack-booted pigs involved. (and I use that word specifically and intentionally to refer to those that are to blame for this incident)
IMO this case is a perfect example of what is wrong with the police in America. IMO every member of the departments involved should be shunned by their community, literally run out of town and denied service in businesses, and be shouted down in the street by citizens. If the law-enforcement community knew what was good for them, their members and their unions would stand up and condemn these cases. But instead, they close ranks and defend those involved in spite of overwhelming evidence. Until this scum and others like them are dealt with, shamed by their peers, and punished, I will never trust a LEO or even give one the time of day.
Last edited by studentff; Jan 8, 2009 at 5:22 am
#153
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: An NPR mind living in a Fox News world
Posts: 14,165
It should also be noted that TSA is not required to report all instances of wrong-doing. It's not a blanket rule of 'reporting contraband.'
"Large sums of cash" are mentioned specifically as having to be reported if found. Narcotics and paraphernalia are mentioned specifically as having to be reported if found.
Other things—pirated DVDs, for example—are not. I've seen maybe a hundred or so pirated DVDs in my six years, and I, quite literally, just finish screening the bag and zip it up and send it on its way.
I do not have a directive from the TSA requiring me or even suggesting that I should report it, so I don't.
"Large sums of cash" are mentioned specifically as having to be reported if found. Narcotics and paraphernalia are mentioned specifically as having to be reported if found.
Other things—pirated DVDs, for example—are not. I've seen maybe a hundred or so pirated DVDs in my six years, and I, quite literally, just finish screening the bag and zip it up and send it on its way.
I do not have a directive from the TSA requiring me or even suggesting that I should report it, so I don't.
Either you participate in the warrantless dragnet or you don't. Screeners have very little judgement when it comes to screening. Why do you have all sorts of latitude when you happen to find "something?" You can't have it both ways.
#154
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
I have recently suggested that they give such benefit of the doubt:
When you are conducting warrantless searches of us, when you see something in our belongings that catches your attention, unless that item is a weapon, explosive, or incendiary, it's none of your business. If you see a pipe, assume it is free of residue of illegal substances and intended for use with legal substances. If you see some porn, assume that it contains people of legal age. If you see a pet, assume that it is licensed and has had its rabies shots. If you see some cash, assume that it belongs to the person holding it. If you see an digital music player, assume that the person holding it had permission to copy the data it contains onto it. If you see some papers, assume that they are not secret plans for world domination. If you see someone with brown skin, assume that he has a right to be where he is.
In the case of a car that is exceeding the legal speed limit, a police officer -- someone trained to enforce the law for us in a constitutional manner -- stops someone because he has observed wrongdoing, and we have granted no special exemption to the normal protections against abuse of power that exist. In the case of TSA searching people at airports, the search is not performed by a law enforcement officer and those performing the search have no reason to believe the subject of the search has done anything wrong. Under other circumstances it would be illegal for TSA to conduct such a search, but we have granted a special exemption because we are so concerned about the possibility of dangerous items being carried onto airplanes.
I do think there should be some limits on what the TSA reports to police. A number of unpaid parking tickets or copied DVDs is very minor. A rational person, though, would have no problem with the TSA reporting a brick of suspected cocaine or a stack of child pornography to the local police.
By policy, [a TSA luggage inspector] is supposed to report suspicious items discovered during an administrative (and consensual) search.
But whatever we call copyright infringement, unless you investigated thoroughly, you cannot know what you claim. You are probably guessing based on the appearance of the discs you saw. Please assume that people prefer not to take their legally-obtained originals with them traveling and have made copies in order to avoid the risk of having their discs stolen or damaged. There's no reason for you to suspect wrongdoing, and it's no more important to airplane security than finding crack pipes, cocaine, stolen credit cards, pornography, unvaccinated pets, or undocumented immigrants.
#155
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: HSV
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
Why did you not report what you suspected were bootleg DVDs?
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
Screeners have very little judgment when it comes to screening. Why do you have all sorts of latitude when you happen to find "something?"
As so many have pointed out: it's not my business.
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
Either you participate in the warrantless dragnet or you don't. [...] You can't have it both ways.
It basically boils down to drugs, drug paraphernalia, and large sums of cash.
There are other things that we report to law enforcement authorities, of course, but they are things that do fall within the scope of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries. Such as an undeclared firearm, for example.
#156
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: HSV
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by Phil
Use of the term "pirate" to refer to someone who copies information without permission of the copyright holder is pushed upon us by those who profit from restricting the copying of information and have a vested interest in elevating our perception of the wrongness of the act.
2. the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.: The record industry is beset with piracy.
Originally Posted by Phil
Please assume that people prefer not to take their legally-obtained originals with them traveling and have made copies in order to avoid the risk of having their discs stolen or damaged.
You ain't gonna' convince me on this one, Phil. They were pirated.
However, you and I do agree on this point:
Originally Posted by Phil
There's no reason for you to suspect wrongdoing, and it's no more important to airplane security than finding crack pipes, cocaine, stolen credit cards, pornography, unvaccinated pets, or undocumented immigrants.
Last edited by HSVTSO Dean; Jan 8, 2009 at 7:08 am
#157
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DCA / WAS
Programs: DL 2+ million/PM, YX, Marriott Plt, *wood gold, HHonors, CO Plt, UA, AA EXP, WN, AGR
Posts: 9,388
Denied, no. Given extra scrutiny, yes. Strictly restricted as to when LEOs can use aggressive and destructive no-knock tactics, yes. Statutorily enhanced penalties against LEOs when they screw-up a search warrant resulting in destruction of life or property and it turns out the subject of the search was innocent (or the wrong house), yes IMO. If departments, prosecutors, and politicians swiftly and harshly punished screwups, then such screwups would become quite rare.
Google "Cheye Calvo dogs" or take a look at this article. Cops raided a guy's house (happened to be the mayor), slaughtered his two dogs (labs, not exactly an aggressive breed) while the dogs were running away from the cops (dogs were shot in the back and in the hind legs), spread dog blood all over the house, and held the mayor and his mother-in-law at gunpoint for several hours while one of the detectives laughed and joked on her cell phone while she made an appointment for one of her own dogs. It turned out the household was completely innocent.
The text of the warrant acknowledged that there was a good chance it was the wrong house (drug smugglers frequently ship drugs to innocent parties and intercept the package before delivery). The warrant did not justify no-knock procedures. The cops refused to apologize, refuse to release the internal report on the incident, and refuse to name the jack-booted pigs involved. (and I use that word specifically and intentionally to refer to those that are to blame for this incident)
IMO this case is a perfect example of what is wrong with the police in America. IMO every member of the departments involved should be shunned by their community, literally run out of town and denied service in businesses, and be shouted down in the street by citizens. If the law-enforcement community knew what was good for them, their members and their unions would stand up and condemn these cases. But instead, they close ranks and defend those involved in spite of overwhelming evidence. Until this scum and others like them are dealt with, shamed by their peers, and punished,
Google "Cheye Calvo dogs" or take a look at this article. Cops raided a guy's house (happened to be the mayor), slaughtered his two dogs (labs, not exactly an aggressive breed) while the dogs were running away from the cops (dogs were shot in the back and in the hind legs), spread dog blood all over the house, and held the mayor and his mother-in-law at gunpoint for several hours while one of the detectives laughed and joked on her cell phone while she made an appointment for one of her own dogs. It turned out the household was completely innocent.
The text of the warrant acknowledged that there was a good chance it was the wrong house (drug smugglers frequently ship drugs to innocent parties and intercept the package before delivery). The warrant did not justify no-knock procedures. The cops refused to apologize, refuse to release the internal report on the incident, and refuse to name the jack-booted pigs involved. (and I use that word specifically and intentionally to refer to those that are to blame for this incident)
IMO this case is a perfect example of what is wrong with the police in America. IMO every member of the departments involved should be shunned by their community, literally run out of town and denied service in businesses, and be shouted down in the street by citizens. If the law-enforcement community knew what was good for them, their members and their unions would stand up and condemn these cases. But instead, they close ranks and defend those involved in spite of overwhelming evidence. Until this scum and others like them are dealt with, shamed by their peers, and punished,
Why?
Because the local citizens have rioted and are considered "minority". In the case you cite, it's an upstanding town mayor in a nice, middle-class, majority community. "Don't make waves".... "It's for our security".... "We must fight the war on drugs".... The mayor is in a tough spot given that he is an elected official and an opponent can make hay if he decides to sue the police. That is part of my definition of police state.
#158
Join Date: Dec 2007
Programs: DL, WN, US, Avis, AA
Posts: 662
Because:
Have you ever stopped to consider that it's not exactly the big warrantless dragnet that it's made out to be? There's actually very little outside of the scope of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries that we are supposed to report to the authorities (especially in the scope of working in checked baggage screening). Unpaid parking tickets aren't it. Pirated DVDs aren't it.
Have you ever stopped to consider that it's not exactly the big warrantless dragnet that it's made out to be? There's actually very little outside of the scope of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries that we are supposed to report to the authorities (especially in the scope of working in checked baggage screening). Unpaid parking tickets aren't it. Pirated DVDs aren't it.
And yet - to return to the original topic of this thread - it appears that reporting large sums of cash is within the scope of screeners' duties. This despite the fact that carrying large sums of cash domestically is perfectly legal; and carrying large sums internationally is also legal, provided the proper paperwork is done.
As long as TSA policy required screeners to report perfectly legal activity to LEOs the screening process is exactly a big warrantless dragnet.
#159
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,111
And yet - to return to the original topic of this thread - it appears that reporting large sums of cash is within the scope of screeners' duties. This despite the fact that carrying large sums of cash domestically is perfectly legal; and carrying large sums internationally is also legal, provided the proper paperwork is done.
As long as TSA policy required screeners to report perfectly legal activity to LEOs the screening process is exactly a big warrantless dragnet.
As long as TSA policy required screeners to report perfectly legal activity to LEOs the screening process is exactly a big warrantless dragnet.
Regardless, TSA has made the possession of large sums of case illegal for all practical purposes in this nations ariports.
I routinely archive my CD/DVD's and use a copy in order to protect my original investment. According to Dean I must be pirating my discs.
In reference to Sgt. Scott, if a uniformed police officer came up to me and started asking questions I would consider myself to be detained regardless if the officer said so or not. The officer is most likely not just passing the time of day.
#160
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: HSV
Posts: 876
Hooo-boy. Let's get technical for just a second.
Dependant upon what it is, you may still be.
Last time I checked (which, admittedly, was several years ago and I don't have time before I start my shift to look it up, so correct me if I'm wrong!), the FBI warning stated any unauthorized reproduction is illegal.
I know most video games I've played in the past several years have a stipulation in the EULA that states the owner can make one copy for back-up archival purposes, but I'm not aware of any DVDs with the same authorization.
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
I routinely archive my CD/DVD's and use a copy in order to protect my original investment. According to Dean I must be pirating my discs.
Last time I checked (which, admittedly, was several years ago and I don't have time before I start my shift to look it up, so correct me if I'm wrong!), the FBI warning stated any unauthorized reproduction is illegal.
I know most video games I've played in the past several years have a stipulation in the EULA that states the owner can make one copy for back-up archival purposes, but I'm not aware of any DVDs with the same authorization.
#161
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BOS and vicinity
Programs: Former UA 1P
Posts: 3,725
Perhaps ironically, I'm pretty sure that Mayor Calvo is himself Hispanic. I give him a lot of credit for not exploiting that fact in the press, because in his case I think his race was truly irrelevant. He seems to be taking steps to generate some accountability, but he's not using race baiting in the process. Calvo has also taken pains to point out that the department that invaded his home has a history of doing the same things in poorer neighborhoods where the citizens don't have his means of fighting back.
IMO there is a serious mentality problem pervading much of our law-enforcement community which has been aggravated by terms like "war on drugs" and aggravated further by the checkpoint, police-state, anything-for-security philosophy touted by the Federal government since 9/11. TSA turning citizens with large amounts of legal cash over to LEOs for possible/probable seizure of their cash is just one small example of the problem. A very insightful poster in another FT discussion a while back pointed out that the root of the problem was when police stopped being "peace officers" and started being "law-enforcement officers."
#162
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Last time I checked (which, admittedly, was several years ago and I don't have time before I start my shift to look it up, so correct me if I'm wrong!), the FBI warning stated any unauthorized reproduction is illegal.
I know most video games I've played in the past several years have a stipulation in the EULA that states the owner can make one copy for back-up archival purposes, but I'm not aware of any DVDs with the same authorization.
I know most video games I've played in the past several years have a stipulation in the EULA that states the owner can make one copy for back-up archival purposes, but I'm not aware of any DVDs with the same authorization.
I think with DVD's, if you can find a way to copy the whole DVD and not the copy protection, you may not run afoul of the law. Breaking the CSS protection on it is illegal, but I haven't seen any rulings that copying an entire DVD you own for backup purposes is breaking the law.
In the gaming world, the whole DRM and copyright thing's starting to come under fire with hearings on the DRM and stuff in March.
#163
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DCA / WAS
Programs: DL 2+ million/PM, YX, Marriott Plt, *wood gold, HHonors, CO Plt, UA, AA EXP, WN, AGR
Posts: 9,388
IMO there is a serious mentality problem pervading much of our law-enforcement community which has been aggravated by terms like "war on drugs" and aggravated further by the checkpoint, police-state, anything-for-security philosophy touted by the Federal government since 9/11. TSA turning citizens with large amounts of legal cash over to LEOs for possible/probable seizure of their cash is just one small example of the problem. A very insightful poster in another FT discussion a while back pointed out that the root of the problem was when police stopped being "peace officers" and started being "law-enforcement officers."
I have no problem with training the police to fight crime, but I draw the line at "shows of force" like Amtrak police routinely do at Union Station in DC (dogs, semi-automatic weapons, body armor, riot masks, etc). Once upon a time children were trained that the police were friends and officers were to be trusted. With today's "anything to keep control" attitude amongst many (note to the Sgt, I'm saying "many" - not "all"), a citizen has to look at an officer with a certain level of suspicion. The Maryland case of infiltrating, gathering intelligence, and putting the people who were observed on the Watch List as possible terrorists is a prime example of going too far.
Mayberry left the station a long time ago.
#164
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,956
I think that the TSA is flirting with the boundaries of the Constitution when it puts out directives of what items are to be reported to LE. For items that are not related to transportation security and, as such, are not the object of the administrative search, why should some be reported and not others?
That brings into question the validity of the search when favorites are being picked because the TSA (by itself) has decided certain illegal matters are more important that others based not on the potential punishment, but more on its belief as to social mores.
And do you know the reason that TSO's are not taught anything about drug identification, but yet are expected to report suspected drugs?
That brings into question the validity of the search when favorites are being picked because the TSA (by itself) has decided certain illegal matters are more important that others based not on the potential punishment, but more on its belief as to social mores.
And do you know the reason that TSO's are not taught anything about drug identification, but yet are expected to report suspected drugs?