LessO2

If only, for example, black people were asked for ID...THAT would be an apples-to-apples comparison for what Rosa Parks did.

The ID thing can still be circumvented easily, at the level of a 19 year-old college student wanting buy a keg.

And to think that SSSS, whether it's printed on a BP or audibly implemented is going to prevent or deter a true terrorist attack is wholly naive. But the procedure looks good to Ma and Pa Kettle, so it's going to stay.

Some posts earlier in the thread questioned TSA manpower to execute this. Doing this creates a (slightly) bigger need for more TSAers. I fully believe that Kip Hawley has been on a mission to expand the TSA job description just enough to avoid budget cuts and downsizing.

Wally Bird

No. An ID check at the TSA checkpoint does nothing to identify "potential terrorists". The name on the ID is matched against the boarding pass, and the photo is (sometimes) matched to the holder. That's it.

ID verification during the check-in process might conceivably identify a terrorist via the no fly list, but I am not aware that it has actually done so to date. I guess the notion that a terrorist may well go to the trouble of acquiring a false yet valid ID is really, really hard to grasp.

You can't fool all the people all the time but it appears you can fool many of them. TSA ID checks are for revenue protection, not security. But hey, if it Makes You Feel Safer...

(BTW - it could be worse. In Canada they do ID checks at the gate. Why ? Answers on a postcard please.)

SDF_Traveler

Ditto -- If a person were on a no fly list and using their real name, they wouldn't get a boarding pass. This is under the assumption that terrorists will always use their real name Based on that (flawed) assumption, an ID check does nothing from a security checkpoint. If you get a boarding pass, it means you passed the no fly list check.

Assuming a terrorist will use their real name, yup, they can conceivably be identified. However, through the use of OLCI or Kiosk check-in, there really isn't an ID check. Only time I'm asked for ID is if I check in with an agent. I think I may have been asked for ID the last time I had to check baggage, but it's rare I check luggage. With that check, they're ensuring the passenger checking the luggage is not a stranger that may have picked up/obtained someones boarding pass. Since all luggage is screened, even that doesn't add to security assuming the checked luggage screening is done properly.

What about Fake ID's?

Say a terrorist gets a fake ID. Fake ID's are a dime a dozen. As security features in ID's are getting better, so is the quality of fake ID's. Go to any university campus. Many "fake ID"'s are actually real govt ID's as well - be it a duplicate from a sibling or two people with similar looks; others will actually go to the DMV and get an ID issued using another identity. If students will go through those lengths to get fake ID's, what do you think a terrorist will do?

Reliance on REAL ID(tm) is even more dangerous:

Even with REAL ID - should it materialize - it'll still be possible for one to get a "real ID" with a stolen identity. Think about it for a moment - anyone can get the pile of documents needed for REAL ID with someone elses identity. Hardest part would be getting the "picture ID" that needs to be sumbitted with the pile of documents & that wouldn't even be a difficult task for someone who makes an effort.

REAL ID will only inconvienience law abiding citizens. In cases of stolen identity and identity theft, it's bound to make fighting it more difficult for the consumer with the stolen identity because REAL ID will be 'billed as a document one can't forge by the government spin machine'.

Ironically, reliance on REAL ID - especially for security - is dangerous.

It isn't even the duty of the TSA to provide private airlines with revenue protection. Considering many "fake ID's" (at least on college campuses) are actually the real deal, you could fool all of them.

I know someone who works at the UK home office. "Fake" (yet legit) UK passports exist. There is a large demand on the black market for them. I'm sure the same applies to US passports at some level. The same case will exist for "real" REAL ID's.

Spending taxpayer money to train TSAers on document verification is a waste, just as checking the ID's are.

ID check's at the gate in Canada? It could be better: In Australian domestic terminals there is no ID check to enter the security checkpoint. No boarding pass check either; I can go airside to meet and greet if I want. There is no ID check when boarding the plane. Anyone care to explain why? Must be really dangerous to have such a big gap in security

iahphx

I won't disagree with you that many aspects of our airport security system are wholly or partially ineffective. At the same time, I would remind you that most of the jihadists out there aren't brain surgeons, so even flawed systems are at least partially effective.

But this has nothing to do with the original subject. The question was whether checking IDs at the airport is Constitutional. Posters claimed they weren't, and compared challenging such checks to the behavior of Rosa Parks. I noted, correctly, that this positition is absurd, and that ID checks are certainly Constitutional. Folks now want to change the subject to the checks simply being dumb.

If you think the checks are dumb, there's a way to change the procedure. That way is through contacting your elected officials and lobbying the executive branch and its TSA regulators. Before you spend your time, though, I will assure you (as you probably can guess yourselves) that such lobbying will be futile -- I'm sure 95+% of the public supports ID checks. You may think these folks are idiots, but they might think the same of you. Regardless, it's a democracy, and on an issue like this, the majority is going to win.

If you want to thumb your nose at these regulations, and try to fly with out the expected ID, feel free. But don't pretend you're some kind of civil right martyr. You're just a person with a minority view practicing civil disobedience because you're not getting your way in our democratic system.

adelauro

I don't try, I actually do it every week. How can you thumb your nose at a regulation that doesn't exist? As clearly stated in the letter to Senator Warner from the TSA, the TSA does NOT require you to present an ID. (Although the wording is interesting in that they have the stauatory grounds to do so. I wonder when they'll begin to implement that?)

I don't believe anyone here has claimed to be a martyr. As for civil disobedience, call it what you will, but since I am not breaking any laws or regulations I fail to see how I am being disobedient.

I believe the majority of the people in this country voted for Al Gore in 2000? Obviously we are not a democracy and the majority does not rule. The Constitution lays this out as well.

LadyPhoenix

Flying as one's mode of transportation is a privilege, not a right.
True or false?

adelauro

Your point is...?

Driving from one place to another is not a right. And yet I don't need to show ID to cross state boundaries.

Again it is pretty simple: the TSA, as per the Senator Warner letter, does NOT require a person to present ID. Until the TSA invokes it's statuatory right to do so, those who choose not to present an ID are doing nothing wrong nor disobedient. What does flying being a privilege and not a right have to do with it?

gj83

The comparison to Rosa Parks is not a comparison of the Civil Rights Movement to flying without showing ID. It is a comparison of civil disobedience.

Rosa Parks is the most familiar example of modern civil disobedience to people in the United States. It could have been easy for her to just walk to her destination and just not deal with the situation at all. Instead she took the bus and when her rights were violated she stood up for herself.

She was just one person refusing 1 act that to many others in her day would have been considered stupid on her part.

The goal we are fighting for is not because a group is discriminated against because of the color of their skin. It is not an incomprehensible discrimination. It is to prevent a power hungry government from taking our ability to exist without proving to everyone around us that we exist.

The goal is much different. The technique employed is the same. please quit misinterpreting the real truth behind the matter: Geronimo would prefer to fly without presenting ID because there is nothing stating we are compelled to show ID. It would often be easier to simply show ID and be done, but Geronimo makes a choice and agrees to the consequences.

Tealady

The reason they do ID checks in Canada at the gate is because CATSA is mandated to check only boarding passes when you enter the security area. They do not check for ID. Therefore, it is done by the airline at check-in and at boarding.

http://www.tiny.cc/n7zz6

"The current regulatory framework does not allow CATSA to screen individuals on the basis of behaviour or identity, though the CATSA Act is broad enough for CATSA to be given this role if required in the future. In jurisdictions such as the United States and some European countries, the PBS functions may include screening of people in other ways – by checking boarding cards and other flight documents, and by identifying atypical behaviour patterns. Some stakeholders commented that new technologies for issuing boarding passes via the Internet or from automated self-serve kiosks might increase the risk of dangerous persons accessing restricted areas and aircraft. Others have suggested that confirmation of boarding passes or air travel documents should be integrated with other functions under CATSA’s mandate, to ensure that it takes place before passengers enter the departure area. This role is now conducted by air carrier personnel at baggage check-in (if the passenger checks a bag) and at the departure gate."

Wally Bird

Interesting, thank you. Next time I fly out of Canada, I'll pay more attention to whether in fact CATSA do ask for ID. It wouldn't surprise me if their screeners also "interpret" the procedures to suit themselves like the TSA ones.

Wally Bird

Exactly. The selectee in lieu of ID predates both the TSA and 9/11. Came in with CAPPS I believe, confimred by the 9th Circuit in the Gilmore case (qv) and now by the TSA itself.

Although I personally do not balk at showing ID (or didn't while I was still flying), more power to those who do. The wider 'disobedience' here is attempting to force the TSA staff to abide by the SOP. Many feel they have license to ignore or expand the 'rules' so as to massage their own egos (I guess that's why they do it, although it could be simple ignorance). Going postal over declining to show ID, as documented more than once, is a clear abuse of power by both TSA and airport LEOs. But maybe that doesn't bother most folks either. Sigh.

Tealady

If you hand them the boarding pass and your ID, indeed, they will certainly look at both. However, since seeing their mandate in print, I will only hand them the boarding pass from now on.

In the past, I have been asked for my passport by CATSA and I have obliged. I can assure you I won't do so again!!

rufflesinc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales

doober

Interestingly, the decision in Gilmore vs. Gonzalez also states: "Additionally, the search option "is not more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives...[and] is confined in good faith to [prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircrafts];" my emphasis

If the search is confined to preventing the carrying of weapons or explosives on board an aircraft, then why are drugs and cash appropriated on a regular basis? Another instance of mission creep?

agrater

I can think of a lot of better ways to serve your country and your Constitution.