I would just like to address this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them. Or as an article that's floating around the FF world puts it "Using miles for economy fares? Savvy travelers know better." Says who? It all depends on how you define "value." Even if you define that strictly as dollars and cents then it still isn't necessarily true...
Ex. 1: Traveler purchases $1,000 LAX-CDG fare and uses 30,000 miles to upgrade to a $5,000 business class fare. Thus 30,000 miles=$4,000. Nice deal. End result: "Savvy" traveler gets to Paris using 30,000 miles and spends $1,000.
Ex. 2: Traveler uses 60,000 miles for a $1,000 LAX-CDG fare. Thus 60,000 miles=$1,000. In dollars and cents terms it doesn't appear to be nearly as good a deal as previous example, but what is this end result? The same as the first example: Non-Savvy traveler gets to Paris. Although he did use up 60,000 miles but with total out of pocket cost: $0.00. (we'll consider fees canceling each other out)
I've even seen ridiculous examples of getting an upgrade award for a fare that would normally go for over $10,000. So what? You can say it would normally cost $25,000, which would work out on paper to be some pretty savvy value on your 30,000 miles, but after a certain point who cares? The end result is the same: You get to Paris. In comfortable style, yes, but still, you got to Paris just like the guy back in coach. The difference is, it cost "savvy" traveler $1,000 whereas the guy in coach got there for free (relatively speaking here).
So it all depends on what you consider "value".
I don't consider 30,000 miles worth some extra leg room.
30,000 miles isn't worth getting on and off the plane first. As far as I know first class passengers take off and land at roughly the same time as coach.
For me, 30,000 miles isn't worth the alcohol and a fancy meal. I can even actually go several hours without eating anything at all! It's really not that hard.
But again, that's just me. Everyone has their own definition of "value" is my point.
Apparently some define "value" as spending $1,000 for a few hours of extra leg room and extra drinks and a nice dessert. Personally, that would fall under my definition of "squandering" but each to his own.
If you enjoy spending $1,000 to sit in the front of the plane with a big pillow and can afford it, congratulations and more power to you, but as for me, my definition of the "savvy traveler" is one who has an extra $1,000 to spend once he gets to Paris.
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I agree that value is in the eye (and the pocketbook) of the beholder.
And I agree that defining that value based on what the airline charges for cash airfares makes sense only if those fares are something you would ordinarily pay.
Edit to add:
To be clear, though, I think there are some times when premium redemptions make sense. On your LAX-CDG route, AA charges 60K miles for coach, 90K for business. If I had 180K miles to burn, I'd rather go twice in Business Class and arrive relatively refreshed, than go three times and arrived exhausted. It's not about the food and drink, but rather being able to sleep much better in the J class seats than in Y.
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I would just like to address this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them. Or as an article that's floating around the FF world puts it "Using miles for economy fares? Savvy travelers know better." Says who? It all depends on how you define "value." Even if you define that strictly as dollars and cents then it still isn't necessarily true...
Ex. 1: Traveler purchases $1,000 LAX-CDG fare and uses 30,000 miles to upgrade to a $5,000 business class fare. Thus 30,000 miles=$4,000. Nice deal. End result: "Savvy" traveler gets to Paris using 30,000 miles and spends $1,000.
I agree with Swag that you bring up some good points questioning the conventional wisdom that points are best spent on biz-travel instead of coach. Still, me and my butt agree more with Swag's preferences.
Using NW WorldPerks as an example, a typical upgrade fare from LA to Paris will cost about $2,500 cash for the "B" bucket coach fare PLUS 60k miles. I only wish I could get away with paying just $1,000. Actual costs seem to make your point evern more strongly that biz-class upgrades are a fool's choice. Generally its better to pay points (plus fees) for that biz class ticket outright, but that won't change the merits of your arguement.
Also, try pricing a biz or first-class award ticket through London, and one will be shocked by the extreme "luxury tax" the Brit impose on premium travel. That would be another point for your arguement.
.. as for me, my definition of the "savvy traveler" is one who has an extra $1,000 to spend once he gets to Paris.
Where do you draw the line? Would you spend a night in a hostel in a shared room if your out of pocket costs are minimal? Would you eat only at McD?
The typical goal is get the highest value for what one considers affordable (and that parameter varies greatly), not to spend as little as possible on the absolute scale.
And in terms of maximum value, premium class tickets for the price of economy plus upgrade mileage are usually considered the best deal.
The typical goal is get the highest value for what one considers affordable (and that parameter varies greatly), not to spend as little as possible on the absolute scale.
I don't agree at all that this is the "typical" goal, and in fact I agree completely with the OP. Frankly, I view the pricing differential of most J/F fares to be completely out of line with the marginal value of the product. There is no way on earth that I would pay $5000 out of my own pocket to get across the Atlantic, a roundtrip journey for me of less than 13 hours. Since there is no chance that I would ever spend that extra $4000 for J in any case, the fact that I could get it for 30,000 miles still doesn't make those miles "worth" any more. The value for me is getting myself to Paris for zero cash outlay.
Two things add to the equation: first, the fact that I travel heavily for work and earn boatloads of miles while getting paid for it, and second, the fact that I am a OW top tier elite. As such I get to sit in the lounge and check in at the elite desks no matter whether I am traveling J/F or not. That, to me, is a big chunk of what you're paying for when you have a J/F ticket.
The way I see it, every person makes his/her own calculation. I find it very annoying (and incorrect) to be derided as a bumpkin every time I mention that I have used miles for a Y award.
I view the pricing differential of most J/F fares to be completely out of line with the marginal value of the product.
This, clearly, is a "to each their own" scenario.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelmad478
There is no way on earth that I would pay $5000 out of my own pocket to get across the Atlantic, a roundtrip journey for me of less than 13 hours.
That is not unreasonable at all, IMO. However, since my travels primarily take me Asia and Australia, your "13 hour roundtrip" is not quite the same either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelmad478
The value for me is getting myself to Paris for zero cash outlay.
And, similarly, for me the value is getting to Asia, spending a marginal amount of cash, requalifying for top tier elite, AND having a nice flight in both directions!
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelmad478
I get to sit in the lounge and check in at the elite desks no matter whether I am traveling J/F or not. That, to me, is a big chunk of what you're paying for when you have a J/F ticket.
On a US-Europe routing, I can appreciate your viewpoint. On a US-Asia routing, not so much. The sleep is equally or more important to a successful stay, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelmad478
I find it very annoying (and incorrect) to be derided as a bumpkin every time I mention that I have used miles for a Y award.
I suggest that you are neither wrong, nor a bumpkin, but rather are a great deal TOO sensitive to other's views of right and wrong.
Dave
I suggest that you are ... a great deal TOO sensitive to other's views of right and wrong.
Take a look at some of the derision heaped on Y award travelers in the BA forum. "Too sensitive?" Please. After years of getting flak on this issue, I'm sick to death of the attitude of most posters, which does not in the least recognize the concept of "to each his own."
Take a look at some of the derision heaped on Y award travelers in the BA forum.
Derision?? On an IBB??? You cant be serious??!! Say it ain't soooo!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelmad478
After years of getting flak on this issue, I'm sick to death of the attitude of most posters, which does not in the least recognize the concept of "to each his own."
I take it you havent spent much time in Omni as a conservative, have you???
In any case, as I said upthread - it is all a "to each his own issue" but that different patterns may tend to lead to different decisions.
Dave
I'm really glad to see this thread, because so many people seem to value their miles based on the cost of the airfare and this is not correct.
When redeeming miles bottom line is that the flight is only worth what you would pay for it. If a TATL fare costs $1000 in Y then the F fare can only be valued at how much you would be willing to pay above that base Y fare.
People seem to fall into general categories; either you are a frequent traveler with expendable miles, or you travel infrequently where accrued miles have more value. Therefore, there must be some sort of formula that could be calculated to assign value to seats in F. It seems to me the more miles that you travel, the less value that your miles actually have. Therefore upgrading upfront makes sense. The fewer miles that you have, the more value that your miles actually have and you probably wouldn't be willing to use them to upgrade to F.
There must be some sort of regression that can be calculated, however I am not a statisticion.
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While hoping not to deride anyone from any side of this discussion, let me point out that it's not always true that the 25,000 mile domestic Y award is a poor value, even if you do base the "value" on the price of the ticket alone.
I am currently holding four domestic Y Skymiles awards for my family and me to fly into HDN for a ski vacation at Steamboat Springs. Total cost: 100,000 Skymiles plus $40 in fees. The ticket price when I booked the awards was just over $1,000 each. So that's $4,000 "value" for 100,000 Skymiles, which is pretty close to the $4,000 value for 90,000 miles cited above for a J TATL ticket, which is generally touted as so much a better deal than a domestic Y award as to be laughable.
Aside from that point, kids also add a variable. The value per person to fly my wife and me in J is much higher than the value per person to fly in J with 2 small kids. And when you're flying four people with miles, you spend the miles very frugally even if you have more than a million, whereas if I were travelling alone with a miles budget over a million, I'd probably use a lot of those miles to fly J.
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Oh, what a tangled web weave we, when first we try to fly for free.
You can go ahead and book your award seat to CDG in the back of the plane. That just means more upgrade seats available for me!
Ahhh, there's that so friendly and enlightening attitude we coach flyers just love about these boards. Thanks for your special sort of clarity to the conversation.
Now, as for actually adding something to the conversation, I can see in the not too distant future when I will consider that extra reclining room of first class having much more "value" and indeed worth the extra cash but fortunately, at the moment, the back of the plane works fine for me. So value not only differs from person to person, as has been stated by most everyone, but it will change over time for the individual too. So it's kind of pointless to discuss what value is when it's definition is wide open.
But the main point of my original post was to communicate my umbrage at the "conventional wisdom" that one is not a "savvy" traveler simply because one does not use their miles for upgrades. An absurd conclusion by nearly any measure.
