braffy

I can confirm from personal experience (yesterday March 2 2013) that Delta will DENY BOARDING in JFK if you are doing a same-day turn to Moscow and do not have a visa in your passport.

If you would like more info feel free to PM.

2mg

A multiple entry visa?
Will one have any problem with turn arounds?

FlirtatiousFlyer

I know that probably none of you can answer this with absolutely certainty, but I'd like your thoughts.

hubby and I are doing a MR to SVO in April. I already have a multi-entry 3 yr visa for Russia so I am good (I got mine b/c I am doing a weekend sightseeing MR to SVO in March AND a weekend sightseeing MR in Sept to St Petersburg). Hubby does not have a visa at all.

Our schedule for this April MR looks like so:
IAD-AMS (depart Fri, arrive Sat)
AMS-SVO (Sat morn, arrive Sat afternoon)
SVO-AMS (Sat afternoon, arrive Sat evening)
spend night in AMS
AMS-IAD (Sun morn, arrive Sun afternoon)

Seeing as how we are spending the night in AMS, it would seem that from whole trip origination perspective we are going usa-svo-ams and hence no visa should be required. However, KLM is the operating carrier and from a per-flight perspective we have embedded in our itinerary ams-svo-ams and perhaps that would be seen as returning to point of origination??? B/C of this "possible" interpretation kink I have spoken to KLM FOUR TIMES, via email, phone, and twitter, seeking clarification on whether they will require a Russian Visa to allow me to board the plane in IAD or in AMS and they gave the same answer EVERY time: "We will follow the rules of the Russian Consulate, they determine the rules, we don't". That's it, no further specifics will be given to me. The Russian embassy/consulate simply repeats what i already know: "if you are transiting through Russia, and your onward destination is identical to the country you are transiting from you are not eligible for 24 transit visa free; otherwise if your onward destination is different you are". YES BUT WILL THEY LOOK AT USA OR AMS AS THE COUNTRY I AM TRANSITING FROM?? *grumble grumble*

you guys got ANY idea on how this will go down?

mizzou miles

I am fairly sure they will look at you arriving from AMS, not IAD as that is your last port. Given that you are then transiting from AMS to AMS via SVO, I think you will have an issue. I know for sure, that China takes a similar position (my brother was deported) for flying LAX-NRT-PVG (change planes in NRT for 1 hour) and then onward PVG-FUK. They considered it a transit from Japan, not from the USA even though he never entered Japan. Given the highly flexible Russian immigration staff, I'd be wary. And who knows what KL will do with it on check in.

braffy

I think you'll be totally fine, assuming your multi-entry is not expired/expiring.

Frustrating! Clearly KLM is covering their butts by giving you a non-committal answer.

My feeling is: If KLM interprets things the same way as Delta JFK -- hubby will not be OK without a visa. I think you'd be able to sneak through Moscow OK assuming you had your boarding passes pre-printed but KLM will possibly/probably not let you on the plane. (According to Delta JFK, Moscow will fine the airline after the fact, but usually the passenger doesn't get hassled in that circumstance). Probably not worth the risk, so I'd just bite the bullet and get a visa for hubby. Maybe he'll get a multi-entry and you'll be free to MR there to your heart's content for the next while.

FlirtatiousFlyer

Wait, so specifically when Delta denied someone before they were originating in JFK, connecting in Russia and then going to AMS (or another country) and spending the night in that onward destination and DL STILL refused to let them on the plane? I just want to make sure your (or whoever's) experience was identical...ie with the overnight in ams.

I don't see how he can even apply for a visa as for a regular tourist visa you have to have hotel reservations to sponsor you and for a transit visa you have to be transiting to a 3rd country (i.e the same rules apply for the transit visa as for the no-transit-visa required with regard to 3rd country destination).

skywalk

I know of an experience similar what the op is inquiring about. Passenger was going from RGN to BOM to DEL to JNB. They were stopped at BOM because customs said passenger should have visa to transit. Caused all kinds of problems-----passenger had to buy ticket out of country (India).

FlirtatiousFlyer

you guys saved us heartache, so i thank you. All this time I was worried about how KLM would view our itinerary (since they are our last carrier before we enter russia) and as I mentioned i could never get a straight answer from them. However, based on what you guys wrote here, i decided to check with Delta again and found out that KLM is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what KLM decides to do once we are in AMS (again we fly usa-ams-svo-ams; spend the night in ams; ams-usa) b/c Delta confirmed for me this morning that they won't let us board the plane in the USA even though they aren't the last link in the carrier chain. Doesn't matter that we have an overnight in AMS - the fare is a RT usa-svo fare and so svo is considered the final destination. So transit visa is required or hubby can't board plane in USA.

FlirtatiousFlyer

my next question is, do you think Russia will grant a transit visa when you are not actually transiting to a 3rd country but returning to the same? I feel like we are in a never never land if Delta/KLM won't let us on plane without Russian Visa but Russia will only grant visa if you are going onward to a 3rd country or staying in russia for tourism/biz. (we have a 1 hour layover, returning on the same plane we come in on).

sefrischling

I just did JFK-MXP-SVO-VCE-FCE-JFK , same day return from SVO, originating on DL. No Visa in my passport. No problems at all. The agent at JFK did verify that I was not leaving the airport verbally, and that was it.

The AZ agent at MXP asked me a few questions about what I was doing in SVO for three hours before flying to VCE, then allowed me to board. No problems at all. No one at SVO, picking up my return boarding pass on Aeroflot cared either.

braffy

Congrats! I'm a bit jealous

My impression is that the chances of having trouble once in transit at SVO or DME are minimal, especially if you already have your ongoing boarding pass in hand. Once you're in the transit area, nobody knows or cares which flight you arrived on, so you're in the clear.

The trouble seems to be in convincing the agent to let you on the plane in the first place. Delta seems to have cracked down on this lately as they had a dedicated visa-checker present for my JFK-SVO flight on the weekend. She was very clear: No visa = no travel, unless you were travelling to a 3rd country (i.e. not USA/Russia, nor Belarus) on the same PNR. She was quite aware of the concept of mileage runs ("you're one of those guys who is flying for miles, right?") and apparently she denied several others within the past week for attempting a similar same-day turn without a visa.

When I asked about the change in policy, she informed me that Delta has been hit with heavy fines from Russia due to same-day return trips which violate their TWOV policy (which apparently states that the onward travel must be to a 3rd country). She says they have also received similar fines from other countries, specifically Brazil and (IIRC) Nigeria, so it's those destinations in particular that they police very carefully. I can't judge the veracity of her claims, but this is what she told me.

Clearly the AZ people didn't have the same strict view of the situation, and I'm guessing that Delta doesn't dispatch the visa-checker to EU bound flights, so for your MXP flight you had to deal with the gate agent only.

braffy

No, my experience was on the direct JFK-SVO-JFK (all DL metal). My concern for your hubby was due to the AMS-SVO-AMS portion of your trip, depending on how strictly KLM would enforce things.

I agree, this seems to be a grey area. Russia's requirements for a transit visa state:

None of these seem to apply for a same-day turn.

Not really true, they will permit you to transit without a visa in this case.

FlirtatiousFlyer

I am on the phone with Delta Diamond Desk right now. Visited the Russian Embassy and they have advised with certainty that a transit visa IS NOT APPROPRIATE for our trip in April (usa-ams-svo-ams-usa) as hubby and i are not leaving the sterile area during our 1 hr layover in svo. They told me to contact my airline and advise my airline of this and have my airline contact them asap if there are any questions or concerns. In summary, someone better bend b/c right now with Russia saying no to the visa as its inappropriate and Delta saying no to the boarding without a visa hubby is screwed (again i already have a visa so i am ok).

FlirtatiousFlyer

So I am on the phone with the Delta Diamond Desk now but they reportedly don't care what the embassy is telling me, they go by what is in their system and when they plug my itinerary into the system it tells them I need a visa. No exceptions. I've now asked them to waive the change fee and fare differential and just drop off the ams-svo-ams segments and we will terminate in AMS. Lady rep is checking with a supervisor, but it doesn't look promising. Update: she has said yes to waiving change fee but no to waiving fare differential. They want $900 to change the routing in any manner. Gone through 2 supervisors and they are not budging.

braffy

Wow... they've got you in a tough spot. Quite frankly, I'm surprised they would treat a DM that way. If they are going to be so inflexible about it, the least they can do is waive all associated fees/charges associated with changing your routing.

I'm curious, how the DL supervisor(s) suggest you get a visa if the Russian embassy refuses to give your hubby a visa on the basis of it being unnecessary for your itinerary?