CanfordCliffs

Oh goodness that brings back memories, I agree Manele Bay was very much a 4* experience 5 years ago, our room carpet felt cheap underfoot and smelled of mildew and the food was poor, best we had was a basic mahe with mash in room service, it went down from there!! But I did like the price...

At $1,000/night AND you must not forget to add in the cost of the flights to and from (for 3 for my family) this makes this 4Seasons is a hugely more pricy option than the Maui resort which I love, be it busy and not so "exclusive".

We felt isolated on Lanai.. I wouldn't pay the extra although I am impressed with what they have done with the rooms.

Do you have any pics of the Bar/Restaurants?

xracer

Because, for many Americans, it's not about convenience or time, it's about fear. Specifically, they are afraid (or have no desire) to leave the country.

I know plenty of folks who can easily afford the 1K+ per night price point, but they would never leave the country to do so. Heck, they don't even have passports.

Since Hawaii is in the US, they can go there, have a tropical vacation and never have to deal with another country. Very American. The resorts know this and Hawaii is priced accordingly.

That said, I am dubious that the Manele Bay property will be able to maintain that price point. Maybe Mr. Ellison needs to learn that he can't price his resorts the same way he prices his database (or applications or middleware or pretty much anything else Oracle-related). I guess time will tell.

ridefar

I am going to guess the mods will crack down on any Ellison discussion pronto, so I won't go there.

All I can say is that based on NYBanker's comments and yours, I am clearly not in the target demographic for this resort. I can't even fathom paying these kind of prices for a 200+ room resort on Lanai. And if it takes me 12 hours to get to this place from Western Canada, I would say "in for a penny, in for a pound" and just go to SE Asia where I could mostly get to in 24 hours-ish.

NYBanker

You are missing a couple of key points...

The only spot In Hawaii that one can get to nonstop from the east coast is HNL....so if I go to anywhere in Hawaii I'd like to visit, it involves a connection. KOA, OGG or this property. The connection point is moot for east coast folks seeking a luxury Hawaii stay.

The offerings in Bermuda and nearly all of the Caribbean pale when compared to properties like Hualalai. While the cost in time is greater to make it to Hawaii, the pickup in quality of stay is worth it. There are few luxury family beach resorts in Europe of the style of these properties (or the properties in SEA)....though I'd welcome any European suggestions.

Also, consider that the cost of travel time is not a purely straight line (time vs cost). Indeed, the difference between a two or four hour flight is effectively nil for us. Six to ten is a band of indifference, then there are the true long journeys...going well over 12 hours. Hawaii falls into that middle band.

I'm excited to try out the newly refreshed property!

lhgreengrd1

HNL may fall into that 6-10 hour middle band from the East Coast, but Lanai most assuredly does not. It's going to take you a minimum of 12 hours and two conveyances to get to Lanai from anywhere on the East Coast of the U.S.

And as far as nonstop flights are concerned, there are certainly direct flights to OGG and KOA from most major cities on or near the West Coast, and from major hubs in the midwest like ORD and DFW. And folks from those markets are going to be much more interested in the luxury properties on Maui and the Kohala Coast which they can fly to directly in 8 hours or less, and which they can book for substantially less than $1000 per night. So if the target market of Manele Bay is only East Coasters who want a luxury resort in Hawaii and won't balk at either the price or the relative isolation of Manele Bay and Lanai, and are willing to spend 12 hours getting to that venue, but NOT 18 hours to get to an even more exotic venue that might only cost $400-700 per night for comparable sybaritic luxury, well, IMHO that is a vanishingly small market segment.

Goodmorning2U

The success of this property to command the high rates they have started to charge has a great deal to do with whether the economy in North America continues to improve. In the current market both FS Maui and FS Hualalai are often at capacity and are raising both room rates and incidental charges like food and spa at a very fast clip. Rates at both Maui and Hualalai during busy times are now $900 a night for entry level rooms, for quickly aging room products. Maui in particular has an outdated room decor.And, there is very little competition for either Hualalai or FS Maui, outside of a very few resorts in Asia. If Manele Bay delivers this wonderful new room product (even entry level rooms are a huge 650+ sq ft), amazing new pool complex, top shelf spa, and improved accessibility, I think it's likely Four Seasons will achieve their Manale Bay rev par goals. If there is a slow down in the economy we will, again, see some very good rates for Hawaiian luxury resorts, and Manele Bay would likely become amongst the best luxury value destinations.

NYBanker

You are correct that my travel band was off by two hours. Regardless, for us and many others on the east coast that travel in similar circles, a connection to Hawaii (at 10 or 12 hours) is considered materially easier than an 18+ hour journey to SEA. The cost in terms of travel drag, even in a premium cabin, becomes geometric when traveling to SEA. I wish it were different, as there are many great offerings in SEA. The connection required for west coast pax, while less desirable than nonstop service to KOA/OGG, won't be a material limitation for this property, either.

You are not understanding the mindset of many of the target customers for such a property. As to a "vanishingly small" segment, you are incorrect. The lack of nonstop air service from any point on the mainland won't be a material limitation for many guests. Further, the opportunity to save a few hundred dollars a night (in SEA) isn't a meaningful driver of decisions at this level of travel.

A truly luxury property located in the US will get the demand, underpinned by strong financial markets, at any not completely insane price. When the markets inevitably turn south, the subject property has a backer that seems likely to (and is certainly able to) stick with it for quite some time, regardless of fluctuations in demand.

Bar a massive economic downturn, it is hard to see a property like this struggle. You may have a different view than me on this. Divergent views do make a market.

LAXJetter

While the rooms look impressive, I would be surprised if the hotel (or any in Hawaii) can support a $1K lead-in room.

While I want to try the place, I'll be waiting until they start doing promotions

lhgreengrd1

I'll grant you that 18+ hours is a materially more unpleasant flight than 12 hours, and I'll grant you that plenty of folks have $1000+ per night to spend. What I won't grant is that most of those folks will want to spend that sort of money and effort to go to Lanai, a place where there is basically nothing to do but lie on the beach or get on a boat, and which has at most, 3 restaurants worth dining at (assuming there will be 2 of them at the 4S properties on Lanai).

Personally, I find Lanai to be worthy of maybe 2-3 days max as a brief side trip from one of the other islands (most typically Maui). I don't see how you can successfully run a major luxury resort on that, even if many folks staying at the 4S Hualalai and the top resorts on Maui were looking for that sort of change of pace.

At the end of the day, if there were a market for an ultra upscale minimum $1000+ per night 200 room hotel at a beach location in the U.S., such a place would already exist on either Maui, or the Big Island, or Puerto Rico, or the U.S. Virgin Islands - all of which have noticeably more to offer as destinations than Lanai does. Hualalai is as close as it gets, and it's still noticeably less expensive than this will be, and the Kohala coast is a MUCH more desirable venue than Lanai, from both an accessibility perspective and what there is to do once you're there.

Goodmorning2U

The lead in rooms (of which there are not many) at Hualalai and Maui are already $900 + during busy times of the year, and requiring long stays during the festive period, and the resorts are sold out. Hualalai has amongst the highest rev par in the chain. Breakfast is easily $50 per person, lunch $40, dinner $100.

Ellison might not be known for his humble visions or conservative spending but he isn't investing in Lanai as a charitable endeavor. He is making his decisions based upon the numbers he has been provided by Four Seasons and his consultants regarding potential expected return on investment. If there is a downturn they will discount these rates, otherwise, they will get them (they are already getting them with an unfinished product).

What has not yet been announced but which I think will come in time is the announcement of a residential time share, construction of a new residential community and/or revitalization of the current exclusive development on the island. My bet is that is it is the real estate development potential which is inspiring Ellison into investing so heavily into Lanai, and not the potential profit from the hotel.

Goodmorning2U

I don't think Lanai is going to be a change of pace from Hualalai. Most of the guests at Hualalai don't leave the propery, or if they do, it's for one day. There are so many excellent activities at the resort, many complimentary, why leave? I've been to Lanai when it was a Luxury Collection property and its a stunning location. If someone wants to go hiking or snorkeling or scuba diving these things are all close at hand. If they create seperate pool environments, add the Four Seasons activities options throughout the day, build a gym with substantial class space, and follow through with the spa, this is going to be viable competition for Hualalai. People come to hawaii for many reasons but the majority want to lounge at the pool/beach and swim in the ocean. I think the reverse of what you said is going to happen. People are going to spend a few days in Maui to shop or take the road to Hana, enjoy a good fight over pool chairs, and then they are going to spend a week relaxing in Lanai. It's a great new addition to the luxury market in Hawaii and currently in great demand.

lhgreengrd1

I just got back from Maui, and I visited the 4 Seasons Wailea (I stayed at the Kea Lani), and there were plenty of empty pool chairs for anyone who wanted one. BTW, there is room availability at this resort for every day this year up to xMas week.

DetailsIM

That room looks amazing. Too bad the rate increase is beyond my means for an entry level room.

pricesquire

Count me in with the people arguing: this is too far & expensive for the average East Coaster.

I'm willing to pay the $$ but for a hotel that size? Sheesh. An Aman, yes...a Four Seasons with 200+ rooms, no.

As for distance, if I'm going to fly that far and be in an aluminum tube that long, bring me to Asia.

Do I think they'll suffer? Hell no! But I'm not part of their target demographic, that's for sure. Caribbean here I come!

Goodmorning2U

I only visit the Four Seasons Maui during their periods of lowest occupancy. Below find more than you wanted to know about the pool chair situation, during low occupancy.
The Four Seasons Maui has three pools; a main pool at the lowest level of the resort, not far from a child friendly pool, which is below the adult serenity pool. One of the pools, the Serenity pool always has a waiting list for chairs, often several hours. Yes, people line up to reserve their chair at 630 am. The children's pool very often doesn't have availability for chairs around the pool after 8 am. The main pool with the large iconic fountain always has space available, except perhaps during festive season. I like the Four Seasons Maui, and is the best fit for us even with the construction of the Montage, and have a great time when we go but I don't think it compares to Hualalai.

There might be availability at the FS Maui now for various dates, and not on the club floor, but rates sky rocket closer to your date of arrival because they do sell out...