LH778 FRA-SIN is delayed for 11 hours. What should I do?
Sep 25, 2016, 11:21 am
#31
Join Date: May 2010
Programs: M&M FTL; BAEC Bronze
Posts: 1,043
Looks like you will have to quote the law to them. Reminding them that "unexpected technical problems" are not an acceptable reason for non-payment according to EU261, and that you expect payment by xxx date and if they do not pay that you will take the matter to court.
For your information then you can look at this: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...ances-list.pdf
and maybe even quote it to them.
For your information then you can look at this: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...ances-list.pdf
and maybe even quote it to them.
Sep 25, 2016, 11:22 am
#32
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,776
Absolutely no need to pay a lawyer for this, simply state the case yourself and maybe also give some recent examples of EU261 court rulings and that usually does the trick for something as clear cut as tech delay.
Sep 25, 2016, 11:29 am
#33
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
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Posts: 50,262
Why quote the law to LH? LH is well aware. Do you remember what it is that went wrong. Was it something truly extraordinary? With an 11-hour delay, presumably you have some idea of what it was.
OP - Where are you lcoated and where did you purchase the ticket? Any chance that you can bring this action yourself in a simple SCC action somewhere near you?
You can clearly do this in Germany, but that may not be convenient. Wherever you do this, make certain to follow the requirements of that jurisdiction.
You can clearly use one of the bottom-feeder services, but they will take 25-33% of the loot. OTOH, that is better than going back and forth with LH.
OP - Where are you lcoated and where did you purchase the ticket? Any chance that you can bring this action yourself in a simple SCC action somewhere near you?
You can clearly do this in Germany, but that may not be convenient. Wherever you do this, make certain to follow the requirements of that jurisdiction.
You can clearly use one of the bottom-feeder services, but they will take 25-33% of the loot. OTOH, that is better than going back and forth with LH.
Sep 25, 2016, 12:41 pm
#34
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 948
And I won't pay a lawyer. Their fee is added to the claim.
Sep 25, 2016, 1:06 pm
#35
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia City Highlands
Programs: Nothing anymore after 20 years
Posts: 6,900
OK, let's go one by one:
Purchasing of the ticket - via Expedia, not directly with LH.
Cause of delay - according to the crew and captain's announcement it was technical (engine problem) no allowing to use the same A-380 for the flight. Because LH does not have spare A-380 parked somewhere, this lead to 'cascading domino events' (captain's quote) and they had to wait another aircraft's arrival. Original plane apparently required quite a lengthy repair because the flight it took off (the next day, 16h later than the originally scheduled flight) went with 2h delay.
I am located in Singapore. Forget getting into counts here and moreover contacting lawyers - local lawyers will ask you $10000 fee upfront to start taking the case. I am not scheduled to fly to Germany any time soon.
So. Taking everything into consideration, I need to resolve this case via email/phone calls.
Purchasing of the ticket - via Expedia, not directly with LH.
Cause of delay - according to the crew and captain's announcement it was technical (engine problem) no allowing to use the same A-380 for the flight. Because LH does not have spare A-380 parked somewhere, this lead to 'cascading domino events' (captain's quote) and they had to wait another aircraft's arrival. Original plane apparently required quite a lengthy repair because the flight it took off (the next day, 16h later than the originally scheduled flight) went with 2h delay.
I am located in Singapore. Forget getting into counts here and moreover contacting lawyers - local lawyers will ask you $10000 fee upfront to start taking the case. I am not scheduled to fly to Germany any time soon.
So. Taking everything into consideration, I need to resolve this case via email/phone calls.
Sep 25, 2016, 10:54 pm
#36
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,754
Simply reply to the email and explain that technical problems are not considered an exceptional circumstance any more for EU261, and you would like your €600.
You have received the 'standard' first response from LH, which is 100% correct against the written legislation, but is not correct when considering the impact of precedent setting European Court of Justice rulings. Based on my experience and many other threads here, a couple more emails to LH and as long as the reason wasn't truly exceptional then they will pay up.
You have received the 'standard' first response from LH, which is 100% correct against the written legislation, but is not correct when considering the impact of precedent setting European Court of Justice rulings. Based on my experience and many other threads here, a couple more emails to LH and as long as the reason wasn't truly exceptional then they will pay up.
Sep 25, 2016, 11:21 pm
#37
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
..I am located in Singapore. Forget getting into counts here and moreover contacting lawyers - local lawyers will ask you $10000 fee upfront to start taking the case. I am not scheduled to fly to Germany any time soon.
So. Taking everything into consideration, I need to resolve this case via email/phone calls.
So. Taking everything into consideration, I need to resolve this case via email/phone calls.
Reasoning will not work in my experience, they always answered me that they are confident that what happened constitutes an extraordinary circumstance that is well tested and can be defended (that is the most elaborate answer I could extort).
If you go back to Europe within the next few years, you can always get a court date for that occasion that will normally expedite payment. If you originate from a customer unfriendly home base such as CH or DE, collection agencies are a true alternative. Also saves a lot of work.
Sep 26, 2016, 12:40 am
#38
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Stuck on this planet - mainly in STR and LAX
Posts: 5,019
The response the OP got is pretty standard for any kind of 261 claim. Just send another friendly email that you disagree with their reasoning and believe that 261 applies since the reason is not excluded.
Give them a few weeks to pay up and tell them you would otherwise take this to a lawyer which would increase their cost.
In my experience (a few cases already) hey then will pay without further discussion. Their strategy is really shabby, but what else do you expect from an airline?
You can always get a lawyer in Germany for that purpose. If LH is incorrect they also need to pay the lawyer fees.
Give them a few weeks to pay up and tell them you would otherwise take this to a lawyer which would increase their cost.
In my experience (a few cases already) hey then will pay without further discussion. Their strategy is really shabby, but what else do you expect from an airline?
You can always get a lawyer in Germany for that purpose. If LH is incorrect they also need to pay the lawyer fees.
Sep 26, 2016, 7:28 am
#39
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
Sep 26, 2016, 9:51 am
#40
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia City Highlands
Programs: Nothing anymore after 20 years
Posts: 6,900
Just sent following email:
Let's see how they are going to respond.
First of all, I would like to appreciate your prompt response on my request.
At the same time I would like you and your management to know what I disagree with the reasoning for not paying the EU261 compensation.
According to the information which is publicly available and as well as court rulings:
Sturgeon v Condor and Bock v Air France (C-402/07 and C-432/07)
Nelson v Deutsche Lufthansa AG and R (TUI Travel, British Airways, easyjet and IATA) v Civil Aviation Authority
Jet2 vs. Huzar
Germanwings GmbH v. Ronny Henning
and finally - September 2015, the Court of Justice of the European Union judged, regarding Case C-257/14:
"Even in the event of a flight cancellation on account of unforeseen technical problems, air carriers are required to compensate passengers."
So. It it was clearly established in the number of court rulings that according to the law it is carrier's responsibility to compensate passengers in case of technical problems.
I hope the list above and this friendly reminder is sufficient for you and your management to reverse your initial decision.
Moreover, I hope that this message would be sufficient and I would not need contact media first and lawyers second to bring unwanted publicity to Lufthansa which was always example for me for excellent customer service.
Your promptly response and positive outcome on this case is highly appreciated.
At the same time I would like you and your management to know what I disagree with the reasoning for not paying the EU261 compensation.
According to the information which is publicly available and as well as court rulings:
Sturgeon v Condor and Bock v Air France (C-402/07 and C-432/07)
Nelson v Deutsche Lufthansa AG and R (TUI Travel, British Airways, easyjet and IATA) v Civil Aviation Authority
Jet2 vs. Huzar
Germanwings GmbH v. Ronny Henning
and finally - September 2015, the Court of Justice of the European Union judged, regarding Case C-257/14:
"Even in the event of a flight cancellation on account of unforeseen technical problems, air carriers are required to compensate passengers."
So. It it was clearly established in the number of court rulings that according to the law it is carrier's responsibility to compensate passengers in case of technical problems.
I hope the list above and this friendly reminder is sufficient for you and your management to reverse your initial decision.
Moreover, I hope that this message would be sufficient and I would not need contact media first and lawyers second to bring unwanted publicity to Lufthansa which was always example for me for excellent customer service.
Your promptly response and positive outcome on this case is highly appreciated.
Sep 26, 2016, 10:06 am
#41
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Programs: TK Elite
Posts: 11,848
Trying to get LH to reimburse lawyer fees seem very optimistic (unless such costs are reimbursed as part of an in-court settlement or decision). I would certainly not engage a lawyer at this initial stage but write myself to LH 2 or 3 times before relying on the services of a third party.
The reply from LH is fully is a expected/predicted and fully in line with how LH is trying to get rid of claims. The OP should reply in short that LH rejecting liabilty is unfounded/not acceptable as according to EC Reg. 261/04 LH is not excempt from paying EUR 600 compensation for delay due to technical problems with the aircraft. Technical issues are not a considered to be extraordinary circumstances under EC Reg. 261/04 art. 5 (3). The OP should ask LH to reconsider the position and state that unless due compensation is paid within 3 weeks, the OP will proceed with legal proceedings.
Good luck!
The reply from LH is fully is a expected/predicted and fully in line with how LH is trying to get rid of claims. The OP should reply in short that LH rejecting liabilty is unfounded/not acceptable as according to EC Reg. 261/04 LH is not excempt from paying EUR 600 compensation for delay due to technical problems with the aircraft. Technical issues are not a considered to be extraordinary circumstances under EC Reg. 261/04 art. 5 (3). The OP should ask LH to reconsider the position and state that unless due compensation is paid within 3 weeks, the OP will proceed with legal proceedings.
Good luck!
Sep 26, 2016, 12:20 pm
#42
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,776
Sep 26, 2016, 4:18 pm
#43
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Eurozone
Programs: LH SEN, HH Gold
Posts: 3,002
Sep 26, 2016, 6:32 pm
#44
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
.... don't you think it's a tad rough for the second letter?
Sep 26, 2016, 10:22 pm
#45
Original Poster
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Location: Virginia City Highlands
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