Left Stranded by Lufthansa
Sep 2, 2014, 9:09 am
#16
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
EU261 DOES apply there was NO extraordinary weather - bad weather is to be expected! It is normal LH operational risk ruled by many courts.....there is bad weather to be expatected at times and LH has to be prepared they will have no way to prove in court that they assisted you the way the law requires it and that is why the EU261 compensation kicks in!
LH has to have precaution in place for this kind of weather which they clearly did not have that is why the compensation is due - get a lawyer to get you the EUR 600.-
LH has to have precaution in place for this kind of weather which they clearly did not have that is why the compensation is due - get a lawyer to get you the EUR 600.-
Sep 2, 2014, 9:16 am
#17
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Programs: Miles&More Blue, SPG Silver
Posts: 3,379
It might have been 19% which is the VAT in Germany. So maybe it really was just a misunderstanding.
For such a long drive from Cologne to Frankfurt you negotiate a fix price with the driver who of course wants to dodge the VAT of 19%. With a receipt he can't. The price of 300€ (incl. VAT) was about right . So his gross revenue would have been about 252€.
For such a long drive from Cologne to Frankfurt you negotiate a fix price with the driver who of course wants to dodge the VAT of 19%. With a receipt he can't. The price of 300€ (incl. VAT) was about right . So his gross revenue would have been about 252€.
Sep 2, 2014, 9:28 am
#18
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,979
It might have been 19% which is the VAT in Germany. So maybe it really was just a misunderstanding.
For such a long drive from Cologne to Frankfurt you negotiate a fix price with the driver who of course wants to dodge the VAT of 19%. With a receipt he can't. The price of 300€ (incl. VAT) was about right . So his gross revenue would have been about 252€.
For such a long drive from Cologne to Frankfurt you negotiate a fix price with the driver who of course wants to dodge the VAT of 19%. With a receipt he can't. The price of 300€ (incl. VAT) was about right . So his gross revenue would have been about 252€.
I have been ripped off many times in Sweden or Norway, so I'm a little bit sensitive to the topic
Sep 2, 2014, 10:30 am
#19
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,188
That's what I wrote.
Great summary. +1
I believe this was a misunderstanding, too. I have never had anyone doubling the fare after I asked for the receipt and I often take cabs in Southern Europe, where many cab drivers will happily (and openly) offer you a fraction of the VAT they save if you do not take a receipt.
1. Although EC 261/2004 delay/cancellation likely does not apply, LH did have a duty of care and should have had someone handy with vouchers or at least directions. Recognizing that massive IRROPS at FRA is hard to handle at a small airport, this might be rudimentary, but even a quickly printed sheet of paper with ground alternatives, e.g. taxis & trains, matters. I do happen to believe that a worldwide air carrier with aircraft in the air 24/7, ought to be able to set up a specialized set of dial-in numbers which it can activate for specific IRROPS. There is no need for over-strained ground personnel to handle each issue. Rather someone else can handle a reroute, vouchers and assistance over the phone (although it does mean finding a phone).
2. OP's daughter, not OP, ought to be writing to LH. She is an adult. Third parties writing about what happened to others tend not to get much attention. If there is a reason why the daughter cannot write her own letter, that needs to be made clear to LH.
3. It is water under the bridge for this OP and his daughter, but for others, it is important to travel with the means to deal with simple adversity. A thunderstorm somewhere between London and Singapore is hardly unusual. Traveling with a credit card and a working phone (or at least calling card) are not luxuries, but rather necessities. Yes, it can be costly to call back home, but a quick call to OP asking for his help would have had all of this fixed while the daughter waited.
There is way too much extraneous detail. All a complaint needs to note are the dates, flights and the lack of duty of care. The fact that this was the daughter's first long-haul is irrelevant to LH.
2. OP's daughter, not OP, ought to be writing to LH. She is an adult. Third parties writing about what happened to others tend not to get much attention. If there is a reason why the daughter cannot write her own letter, that needs to be made clear to LH.
3. It is water under the bridge for this OP and his daughter, but for others, it is important to travel with the means to deal with simple adversity. A thunderstorm somewhere between London and Singapore is hardly unusual. Traveling with a credit card and a working phone (or at least calling card) are not luxuries, but rather necessities. Yes, it can be costly to call back home, but a quick call to OP asking for his help would have had all of this fixed while the daughter waited.
There is way too much extraneous detail. All a complaint needs to note are the dates, flights and the lack of duty of care. The fact that this was the daughter's first long-haul is irrelevant to LH.
A long ride on the highway with a running taxameter at night is pretty much the easiest way for a taxi driver to make money - I really doubt he would have asked a 90% surcharge. Note that apparently OP (and OP's daughter) don't speak German, and in general, German taxi drivers aren't known to speak English well
Sep 2, 2014, 11:02 am
#20
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
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Posts: 50,262
EU261 DOES apply there was NO extraordinary weather - bad weather is to be expected! It is normal LH operational risk ruled by many courts.....there is bad weather to be expatected at times and LH has to be prepared they will have no way to prove in court that they assisted you the way the law requires it and that is why the EU261 compensation kicks in!
LH has to have precaution in place for this kind of weather which they clearly did not have that is why the compensation is due - get a lawyer to get you the EUR 600.-
LH has to have precaution in place for this kind of weather which they clearly did not have that is why the compensation is due - get a lawyer to get you the EUR 600.-
Sep 2, 2014, 11:09 am
#21
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 948
Sep 2, 2014, 11:39 am
#22
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
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Posts: 2,239
Exactly! And that is why LH and many others loose case by case in the court - something very hard to understand for some FT members because they are so pro-airline BS that they forget to see the whole picture - as long as FRA was operating + open which was the case! LH has to pay the compensation as they will not be able to prove why they did not take extra fuel etc. to stand in line to land!
It is simply a business case it was cheaper to dump the pax rather then continue to burn fuel.....it was NOT weather but the business case that caused them to make the decision - they could have re-fuled and continued.... FRA was open!
A clear case for compensation!
It is simply a business case it was cheaper to dump the pax rather then continue to burn fuel.....it was NOT weather but the business case that caused them to make the decision - they could have re-fuled and continued.... FRA was open!
A clear case for compensation!
Sep 2, 2014, 11:58 am
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 7
Further clarification
Thank you one and all for your insights and comments.
To clarify some of your queries, here goes:-
As I explained earlier, she had just turned 18 so she was only allowed a debit card. Apart from the fact that there was no roaming for her phone ( she never needed it while she was in UK as we always communicated via wifi ) her phone was working fine except that after a full day of traveling, the phone battery was weak and the charger she had would not plug into a continental socket. and like most of us who tend to rely on Wifi and internet, it was naturally assumed that all airports would have wifi connection.
As for the flight connection from Frankfurt to Singapore, this was offered by the airlines on a reliable travel site ; surely if the airlines felt it would be risky to have such a short connection , they would not have offered it as the only option? We travel frequently , on business as well as for vacation, and nothing like this has ever happened to us .And from experience, one doesn't normally change cash to cater for the country one is transiting in, I would imagine. I also believe that the cash my daughter was carrying was sufficient even for any other type of traveler for any overnight journey- anything more and she would be asking to be mugged!
My daughter did indeed write to LH herself but has yet to receive any response. I also wrote in hoping to elicit a response but to no avail. and not to worry, our letters basically contained pure facts , the relevant EU regulations , and the compensation we were requesting for, nothing more.As this is a forum, the narration of my daughter's experience definitely contains more detail than the letters of demand and after several weeks of silence, we were basically wondering what else could be done. We only received an automated computer generated response of acknowledgement of our email to this day.
She did finally manage to borrow the family's handphone to message me that she was stranded but not to worry as she would sort things out . This was all before the situation escalated to no assistance whatsoever. By that time, she and the family needed to take their own initiative instead of relying on LH"s assistance which was not forthcoming in any event. It was only when she touched down in Singapore that I got to know the whole story not only from her but also from the kind family who assisted her.
If you read my original post, there was really nothing I could do even after I received her sms as LH was ignorant of the situation to begin with and thereafter, they just kept telling me to call back every 2 hours for an update - mostly i was just put on hold and I had to hang up after half hour waiting on the phone and had to redial again. And when I did finally get a voice at the end of the line, their favourite reply was - we don't know anything!And when I asked if they had sent her to a hotel for the night ( since it was about midnight when she contacted me ), they said they had no information whatsoever!
To caspritz78- that was my dismay and disappointment with LH as well ; that as a Star Alliance member, we had expected LH to be more efficient and organised in handling such situations.Even Singapore Airlines would have a contingency plan which is automatically activated once something like this happens ; there was no such back up plan here from LH.
Further- my daughter was with a whole group of passengers so they had to split their group up into 4 taxis. When they all reached Frankfurt airport, each group asked the other whether they managed to obtain a receipt as evidence to claim against LH, and each group confirmed that they were unable to do so as they weren't about to pay an extra 90% on top of the taxi fare for a receipt. One group from UK had a boy who spoke german and was told that as well so I doubt that there was any misunderstanding over the taxi fare. Perhaps, there might be some recent rule or " trade union" agreement that insists on them charging a hefty 90% taxi fare for a receipt???
I am trying all avenues possible for LH to respond to my complaint and offer some sort of compensation for the aggravation suffered and the point of my post is also for brainstorming purposes.
To clarify some of your queries, here goes:-
As I explained earlier, she had just turned 18 so she was only allowed a debit card. Apart from the fact that there was no roaming for her phone ( she never needed it while she was in UK as we always communicated via wifi ) her phone was working fine except that after a full day of traveling, the phone battery was weak and the charger she had would not plug into a continental socket. and like most of us who tend to rely on Wifi and internet, it was naturally assumed that all airports would have wifi connection.
As for the flight connection from Frankfurt to Singapore, this was offered by the airlines on a reliable travel site ; surely if the airlines felt it would be risky to have such a short connection , they would not have offered it as the only option? We travel frequently , on business as well as for vacation, and nothing like this has ever happened to us .And from experience, one doesn't normally change cash to cater for the country one is transiting in, I would imagine. I also believe that the cash my daughter was carrying was sufficient even for any other type of traveler for any overnight journey- anything more and she would be asking to be mugged!
My daughter did indeed write to LH herself but has yet to receive any response. I also wrote in hoping to elicit a response but to no avail. and not to worry, our letters basically contained pure facts , the relevant EU regulations , and the compensation we were requesting for, nothing more.As this is a forum, the narration of my daughter's experience definitely contains more detail than the letters of demand and after several weeks of silence, we were basically wondering what else could be done. We only received an automated computer generated response of acknowledgement of our email to this day.
She did finally manage to borrow the family's handphone to message me that she was stranded but not to worry as she would sort things out . This was all before the situation escalated to no assistance whatsoever. By that time, she and the family needed to take their own initiative instead of relying on LH"s assistance which was not forthcoming in any event. It was only when she touched down in Singapore that I got to know the whole story not only from her but also from the kind family who assisted her.
If you read my original post, there was really nothing I could do even after I received her sms as LH was ignorant of the situation to begin with and thereafter, they just kept telling me to call back every 2 hours for an update - mostly i was just put on hold and I had to hang up after half hour waiting on the phone and had to redial again. And when I did finally get a voice at the end of the line, their favourite reply was - we don't know anything!And when I asked if they had sent her to a hotel for the night ( since it was about midnight when she contacted me ), they said they had no information whatsoever!
To caspritz78- that was my dismay and disappointment with LH as well ; that as a Star Alliance member, we had expected LH to be more efficient and organised in handling such situations.Even Singapore Airlines would have a contingency plan which is automatically activated once something like this happens ; there was no such back up plan here from LH.
Further- my daughter was with a whole group of passengers so they had to split their group up into 4 taxis. When they all reached Frankfurt airport, each group asked the other whether they managed to obtain a receipt as evidence to claim against LH, and each group confirmed that they were unable to do so as they weren't about to pay an extra 90% on top of the taxi fare for a receipt. One group from UK had a boy who spoke german and was told that as well so I doubt that there was any misunderstanding over the taxi fare. Perhaps, there might be some recent rule or " trade union" agreement that insists on them charging a hefty 90% taxi fare for a receipt???
I am trying all avenues possible for LH to respond to my complaint and offer some sort of compensation for the aggravation suffered and the point of my post is also for brainstorming purposes.
Sep 2, 2014, 12:00 pm
#24
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,754
Is there any chance you could publish one of your court cases, with personal details removed?
If a reduced flow rate into an airport due to weather was a valid reason for compensation I could make a lot of money by booking a BA domestic flight from LHR whenever thunderstorm or bit of fog is forecast!
Sep 2, 2014, 12:01 pm
#25
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,979
It is simply a business case it was cheaper to dump the pax rather then continue to burn fuel.....it was NOT weather but the business case that caused them to make the decision - they could have re-fuled and continued.... FRA was open!
A clear case for compensation!
What is not excusable is that no one from LH was available at CGN to redirect and help the passengers.
Sep 2, 2014, 12:59 pm
#26
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
The "duty of care" applies in all circumstances. My question is in response to the post suggesting that OP is entitled to delay/cancellation compensation. Two entirely different provisions and concepts.
So, I again ask what LH ought to have done? Perhaps continued on into FRA, violating the law and putting lives and the aircraft at risk?
So, I again ask what LH ought to have done? Perhaps continued on into FRA, violating the law and putting lives and the aircraft at risk?
Sep 2, 2014, 1:15 pm
#27
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SIN (with a bit of ZRH sprinkled in)
Posts: 9,455
Provide a hotel in CGN (we knew that FRA was a zoo at that night, and getting a hotel there was close to impossible) - their airplane got their at a early enough time to at least make preparations, and once it came clear they wouldn't get to FRA that evening, they could have put them in hotels asap and prepare next-days transportation etc.
Next day, transport them to FRA by any mean, and/or have them rebooked on other connections (via ZRH, MUC, VIE, or non-LH-group airlines, whatever).
Sep 2, 2014, 2:50 pm
#28
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Programs: Miles&More Blue, SPG Silver
Posts: 3,379
The weirdest thing is that the LHR-FRA flight landed at 8:30pm in CGN and they didn't let the passenger leave the plane until 11:30pm.
Around 10:30pm the pilots should have known that they have no chance to reach Frankfurt before 11pm. At 11pm the airport closes and the night fly ban kicks in until 5am. So no take-offs and landings during this time.
In addition the crew probably time out around 11:30pm. That's why they let off the passengers.
The whole handling of the situation seems like a big screwup by LH. LH could have easily get the Cologne ground crew ready within the time the aircraft landed and parked on the tarmac until the passenger got off it.
The only thing I don't believe of the whole story is the 90% surcharge by the taxi driver. There is no trade union agreement or anything. I know it is hard when you under stress want to get home but in such a case write down the number of the cab (in Germany it is on yellow sign on one of the windows) and the license plate and warn the driver that you will inform the taxi company.
Around 10:30pm the pilots should have known that they have no chance to reach Frankfurt before 11pm. At 11pm the airport closes and the night fly ban kicks in until 5am. So no take-offs and landings during this time.
In addition the crew probably time out around 11:30pm. That's why they let off the passengers.
The whole handling of the situation seems like a big screwup by LH. LH could have easily get the Cologne ground crew ready within the time the aircraft landed and parked on the tarmac until the passenger got off it.
The only thing I don't believe of the whole story is the 90% surcharge by the taxi driver. There is no trade union agreement or anything. I know it is hard when you under stress want to get home but in such a case write down the number of the cab (in Germany it is on yellow sign on one of the windows) and the license plate and warn the driver that you will inform the taxi company.
Sep 2, 2014, 2:55 pm
#29
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SIN (with a bit of ZRH sprinkled in)
Posts: 9,455
The weirdest thing is that the LHR-FRA flight landed at 8:30pm in CGN and they didn't let the passenger leave the plane until 11:30pm.
Around 10:30pm the pilots should have known that they have no chance to reach Frankfurt before 11pm. At 11pm the airport closes and the night fly ban kicks in until 5am. So no take-offs and landings during this time.
In addition the crew probably time out around 11:30pm. That's why they let off the passengers.
The whole handling of the situation seems like a big screwup by LH. LH could have easily get the Cologne ground crew ready within the time the aircraft landed and parked on the tarmac until the passenger got off it.
Around 10:30pm the pilots should have known that they have no chance to reach Frankfurt before 11pm. At 11pm the airport closes and the night fly ban kicks in until 5am. So no take-offs and landings during this time.
In addition the crew probably time out around 11:30pm. That's why they let off the passengers.
The whole handling of the situation seems like a big screwup by LH. LH could have easily get the Cologne ground crew ready within the time the aircraft landed and parked on the tarmac until the passenger got off it.
One thing, however, that might have hold them in the plane till 11.30pm (when, as you say, probably crew timed out) was if they tried to get the pax with this plane and with this crew to another airport where they had other choices to fly off from - like ZRH (which would have had a convenient lunch departure for SIN and many other asian destinations) - and be less likely to have overfilled hotels. However, I doubt they really tried that, it's just an idea why they could let them have stayed so long on bord. (ZRH does have a night time ban as well, but it's not enforced very strictly, and other airports don't have night bans in Europe at all, so this MIGHT have been a possibility..)
Sep 2, 2014, 3:24 pm
#30
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,979
Further- my daughter was with a whole group of passengers so they had to split their group up into 4 taxis. When they all reached Frankfurt airport, each group asked the other whether they managed to obtain a receipt as evidence to claim against LH, and each group confirmed that they were unable to do so as they weren't about to pay an extra 90% on top of the taxi fare for a receipt. One group from UK had a boy who spoke german and was told that as well so I doubt that there was any misunderstanding over the taxi fare. Perhaps, there might be some recent rule or " trade union" agreement that insists on them charging a hefty 90% taxi fare for a receipt???
That's why you ask 'nine-what? Do you mean ONE NINE or NINE ZERO' and use your fingers... (hmm, how do you show zero?
)As said it happens to get ripped off by can drivers especially if you are desperate but 90% extra would be really a new all time low.
Did she ask for the receipt? Certainly you want to get reimbursed by LH, than you need it anyway.