sp4294

So, when the B744s come in for refit next year, I guess it will now be a further downgrade - to all Y on the UD? At least we can hope for some Y+ instead?

MumbaiDan

BA operates a sub fleet of 777 with a small C only (no F) successfully since a long time. This subfleet operates problematic routes with lower premium demand. Due to the stretched number of slots at LHR they have on top moved those flights partially to Gatwick. BA also operates ex LHR high and low J Fleets with F. BA F out of many markets is priced like a premium J product. LH continued for years to offer a full cabin everywhere (which I never understood), so what LH now does is nothing new, but something everyone (BA, AF, etc.) already has implemented years ago. Lets also not forget that the captive markets out of London and Paris are in much higher demand for (direct connection) leisure (and low trunk) premium seats then Frankfurt.

Regarding the A319. I recall Lufthansa being the first airline that operated a business only service, both with A319 and 737. So what BA now does out of LCY is not that innovative. I have flow this service last year and find, by the way, the stop in Shannon to be painful though. Due to Global Entry a nonstop flight ex Heathrow (with many choices per day to stay flexible) in F is so much more convenient....

Shame is that most airlines (including BA) are now installing the NEK seat. Real premium products are gone in Europe (or am I missing something). But I like the free seat next to me anyway....

seat 1a

They also operate a 747 with F to DME .

gum

At the beginnin of the dedicated Y+ thread there was a linked article that stated that the maximum number of Y+ seats installed to an LH aircraft would be 52 seats.

This number of seats doesn't fit on the A380 upper deck in a proper way. Instead of this my speculation would be:

< Y+ >

• 2-Stair-2 (Row 50)
• 2-Stair-2 (Row 51)
• 2-Stair-2 (Row 52)
• 2-4-2 (Row 53)
• 2-4-2 (Row 54)
• 2-4-2 (Row 55)
• 2-4-2 (Row 56)
• 2-4-2 (Row 57)

Instead of 84 seats of Y the "zone 1" of the main deck between the doors M1L/M1R and M2L/M2R accommodates those 52 seats of Y+.

Especially if you think of the fact that Lufthansa looses 6 seats of capacity on the upper deck by installing the New C Business Class this should be the way how Lufty will install the Y+ on their flagship.

It would enable to maintain the Premium experience on the Upper Deck. Furthermore Lufthansa will need that space for all the returning and disappointed passengers from other carriers who suddenly realize that the grass is not greener at the highly subsidized carriers of the founders and majority shareholders of the in some years long forgotten artificial hubs amidst the desert.

oliver2002

9 OT chatter posts deleted.

Regards Oliver2002
Mod M&M forum

N1003U

AF has been had Y+ upstairs in the back for quite some time (maybe since the beginning of 388 service back in 2008/9?), so there is a precedent. Seems like a sensible place to put it (except maybe for those C-travelers who like the back exit door row).

oliver2002

AFAIK the plan is to reduce Y to make space for E, this was confirmed here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/22464816-post5.html

Back in the day when LH was planning/toying with the idea to retain some 343 and 744 for leisure destinations and run them in 2 class layouts with minimal C cabins, the idea of Y in the UD of a 744 was considered. It seems this is a rehash of that concept. The leisure destination idea is mentioned in the articles linked above. A written off 343 or 744 flying to MRU/MLE etc with C only till door 2 on weekends when business traffic is low might make economic sense, just like the BA LGW leisure ops and AF Indian Ocean / Caribbean ops.

gum

Thanks for the valuable hindsight, oliver2002!

Is it just me or do others also don't understand the concept of the Upper Deck Y class layout?

Remembering that Swissair had that in former days! Never understood why they have allocated 66-69 seats up there and not a part of the Business Class or copied Lufty's unique First Class Upper Deck experience.

IMHO the C class offer to a leisure destination would be much more attractive if you allocate the whole C class of 20-24 seats in the Upper Deck on the B747-400.

In combination with some flexible upselling instruments (like Miles from Miles & More or special upselling offers) this would be a fine holiday experience for frequent flyers and their family.

Then you could allocate five seats of First in Zone 1 of the main deck, a massive galley/lavatory complex as divider behind and then start with Y+ right at door 1L/1R!

So both in the B747-400 as well as the A380-800 Y+ clearly fits on a privileged position of the main deck.

DL2SXM

so, they're basically taking a page out of the Delta Air Lines play book.

gum

What ist that?

FD1971

As pointed out before, it is actually more a play from the NW/KL playbook, one that turned out to be way superior to the one used by Delta over the last 20+ years.

KLM (+Schiphol and the Government) realized very early how to make money and that an occupied Y seat and passenger channeled through Schiphol is way more desirable than empty C class seats or C class seats sold in foreign markets at huge discounts.

Aside from NW 67/68 (KL 6067/6068), a daily 744 continuing to India, the vast majority of the KL/NW North Atlantic (and later further) alliance was operated with small C class cabins, i.e. only 26 WBC seats on the DC10, which operated the vast majority of the NATL traffic. KLM decreased its premium seat cabin(s) by discont. Royal First Class in the early 1990's and gradually reducing the number of WBC seats on the M11 and 744, partly in favour of Eco+

Emirates is simply copying major parts of the KLM/Schiphol playbook as pointed out before.

The current playbook by Delta is still mostly intell. property from Northwest, hence the airline will be successful financially.

TRAVELSIG

Should we "go long" on Delta?

N1003U

When one uses the terms "financial success" and "airline" in the same sentence, it usually needs to be understood in context--for example, that the terms "bankruptcy" or "re-structuring" are also not written nearby.

The way most people who understand allocation of capital along an efficient investment frontier understand the term financial success, the expression "financially successful airline" is an oxymoron.

However, within the industry, there are some airlines who perform a lot better than their peers...

FD1971

Only if you have some capital left, but I fear you invested every penny into Aeroflot after their massive and highly sucessful expansion ex VCE.

Still one of the all-time primers. ^

FD1971

Indeed, some airlines got it, some are lost hopelessly.

The latter used to be sucked up by Swissair, nowadays Etihad plays 'Hunter' on behalf of PB.