Forrest Bump

IMO, what your friend experienced is not rudeness in the litteray term.
Contrary to what is believed, Italians do not smile often, or indulge in pleasantries and formalisms as is the case in other cultures.
This happens way more to those involved in in daily contact with tourists.
Add to this the average lack of english skills, which leads to some form of embarrassment which leads to get rid of the interlocutor quickly in order to exit from the "discomfort area".
I look at this (cutting off the edges, of course) like a social different approach, rather unwillingness to engage in relations with foreigners.

Pargeo

Queue jumping (line cutting?) is Italians' national sport, especially Italian children's. That is why I, staying at an equal distance from an Italian water amusement park and a French one, prefer the French one, even if the French one is normally more busy, more expensive and lacks some really beautiful slides Italian one has - coping with a bunch of Italian kids (aged 5-25) who apparently just have no idea what a queue is and how to deal with it is just beyond me - especially when the queues are long and under a scorching sun.
But I wouldn't say it's rudeness - whatever they do, smile or don't smile, they are sincere.
Speaking a bit of Italian also helps, btw.

slawecki

i should also like to mention that italy is 100 or so separate countries or principalities only recently combined into one fabulous tax evading state.

jib71

Is it uncivilized for a society to be incapable of queuing? Yes.
Is it rude for individuals in said society not to queue. No. In fact, it's the only way to cope in such an uncivilized place.

FlyingHoustonian

Who gets to define civilised?

Up In The Air

Hear, hear!

Things have improved immensely in Italy in recent years with the introduction of numbered queuing systems and organized queues at banks etc.

I find the best way is to politely greet anyone who comes to join a queue I'm in. That way he/she knows that you know that you he/she knows that you were there first.

Not wishing to generalize ... but Italian children tend not to queue at ski lifts and this can be rather irritating.

You Want To Go Where's point about different cultures is spot on: We say that my fellow Brits love queuing. This is generally true, except for in crowded pubs, where it's every man/woman for himself/herself – and the orderly queuing often becomes scrum; thus revealing a somewhat less polite side of the British.

jib71

Yes. That was a bit cheeky of me ... Many definitions of civilization center on the development of large centers of population and complex social structures that ensue. Take these academic descriptions for example:

Civilization is a form of human culture in which many people live in urban centers, have mastered the art of smelting metals, and have developed a method of writing.

The first civilizations began in cities, which were larger, more populated, and more complex in their political, economic and social structure than Neolithic villages.

I think that a society that uses the scrum rather than the queue or the appointment to determine who gets served and when has failed to introduce fairness into crowded place with limited resources. It has failed to deal with the complexity of the situation. It is dog eat dog, every man for himself. It is ... how shall I say ... barbaric.

In such a situation, I would not call a pushy person rude.

slawecki

would be nice to introduce the brits to civilization and get them to all walk and climb stairs on the right(or left?) side. nyc has police enforcement to keep people on the right.

at the vaperetto, about 10% of the boarders charge the out ramp to get on. for some reason, i mostly recollect a left hand que system

jib71

I have no idea what your point is, but I applaud you for trying.

ysolde

I find Italians to be quite polite, in terms of being cheerful, well-mannered, helpful with giving directions, that sort of thing. They seem to get past the line-cutting thing by having appointments for most tourist attractions, rather than lines. They do drive like maniacs in Rome, but, apparently, that's just the way it is. I did have moments when I was convinced I was going to be squashed like a bug by the traffic. Never happened.

In general, it helps to speak a bit of Italian, and just go with the flow. When in a foreign country, I want to know what the locals are doing, not get caught in the tourist traps (with the exception of marvelous places like St. Peter's and the like -- tourist trap or not, WOW!).

BuildingMyBento

Most of the time, how would they know whether or not you speak Italian? If you're simply waiting on the queue, does everyone become nicer because you can say more than "grazie?"

ysolde

I didn't find myself in a lot of places with queues. Indeed, the most crowded place I was at was the Vatican, waiting for a WC, after a papal mass where they (he?) (the RCC?) (not Christian, so not entirely sure how that works) had named a whole bunch of new saints. The lines were long, but well-organized. And people were incredibly polite.

As I said, in general (not specifically in places where people are waiting in line, something I did not much experience), it helps to speak a bit of Italian, and to go with the flow.

FlyingHoustonian

This is nice though vexing as it doesn't really answer the question I posited. Heck, I'm aware of that and several different academic denotations and generic connotations of civilised society (shoot, I even wrote a thesis on one years ago), but the above fails to answer the simple and key question of who gets to decide (and why)? What puts you in a place to do so, or are you just giving your opinion-as you seem to present it as fact (I appologise if I misconstrue)?

One kcan find "academics" who disagree on basic things, even in peer-reviewed papers and books. Chinese scholars, African, American, or European will often disagree on basic concepts (just as one example).

Certainly the British Empire had its academics "back in the day" who thought it duty and right to define what is civilised, as have other empires and superpowers, but being as there is no, one central authority on the matter what makes your supposed definition anywhere close to coherent or correct?

-Since your post notes what is barbaric and alludes to urbanity, are non-urban dwellers "heathens"?

-Do you think the term savages is acceptable in such cases like line or queue "jumping" or "cutting".

-What about urinating in public? I see this very often in some European societies (though not Italia mind you) would the lack of using a "loo" or bathroom make one "barbaric "like is often seen in London or Amsterdam?

Just curious.

jib71

I have already said that I was being cheeky (i.e. impertinently bold) so I hope it's clear that I am aware that what I'm saying is an opinion stated in a provocative way. Right? So lighten up.

I guess my premise is that "fairness" is a mark of a civilized society. I think that's self evident. And - as I wrote in my last response, a society that uses the scrum rather than the queue or the appointment to determine who gets served and when has failed to introduce fairness into a crowded place with limited resources.

FlyingHoustonian

What a moderately humourous yet slightly feckless posting; how yummy.


Yes indeed, I am well aware of what cheeky infers (and I agree you were being so), and I, as it is a discussion board, will take to task your "provocative" posting. (Or do you expect being provocative will get no response?)


Well, hmmm. Here it would seem you might need to take your own advice I presume. I am not sure how one tries to sense tone via the typed electronic word but you might need more practis(c)e. It is a nice attempt to redirect and not answer my several direct question to you in the post however, so good on you for the attempted redirect. But I've never been better, thanks for thinking of me though.


An Excellent and well thought out paragraph. I am (sincerely) impressed.

Now that would actually be an excellent post and answer for what I asked about a couple posts above, thanks.

The debate about whether society should strive to be fair is for another thread, and what fair is also (not to be pedantic mind you, we might agree).
However, I will say I find the "scrum" no more or less indicative of manners (civilised if you well) than drunk/rowdy adult people pissing or defecating in public; something I witness in certain parts of Europe regularly. We all have our own standards, and I respect you have yours. I just think it is pretentious to think there is one set standard definition, when the world has too many different mores for such a thing.

I presume we all agree each "society" has one or two unique aspects that do not transfer well to others, or do not reflect positively on those from others.