Out of Biz airline standby policy
Dec 5, 2005, 1:07 am
#31
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Well, do you have a problem with the law? Do you think the law is unethical and should be repealed?
Originally Posted by Auracon
I guess it doesn't matter then. You obviously don't find this unethical in any way at any extent.
Dec 5, 2005, 11:19 am
#32
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No I don't have a problem with the law. I have a problem with your logic in calling your entire scheme completely fine and dandy. But whatever, this is your life and your decision.
Dec 5, 2005, 6:34 pm
#33
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Well, do you have a problem with the law? Do you think the law is unethical and should be repealed?
Q20 kind of says you have a choice to be transported under Section 415 OR get a refund. I always thought when you flew under 415 you had to sign over your ticket to the airline you're flying. My guess is you're going to have to lie and/or commit fraud to get a refund and fly under 415.
Q21 kind of applies if you show up with a reservation but then want to fly standby. I can see an airline giving you the choice of flying under the terms of your refundable ticket or not flying at all.
Dec 6, 2005, 12:19 am
#34
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Yes, the refundable tix can be unethical, from what I understood with the original tix revenue is something else. What I mean is that you are filling a complaint and getting the money back from your credit card, since they are only paying DH once they take off, any money you didn't request a refund to would go to Citibank or another company like that which has nothing to do with the flight. Thus, requesting a refund from them shouldn't impact the ethics in the whole situation. However, if the cost of the flight goes to the new airline then we have a whole another issue on our hands.
Originally Posted by lewisc
I'd say booking a refundable ticket you have no intention of using under any circumstances, booking for the sole purpose of having an unused seat on the flight, to be unethical.
Q20 kind of says you have a choice to be transported under Section 415 OR get a refund. I always thought when you flew under 415 you had to sign over your ticket to the airline you're flying. My guess is you're going to have to lie and/or commit fraud to get a refund and fly under 415.
Q21 kind of applies if you show up with a reservation but then want to fly standby. I can see an airline giving you the choice of flying under the terms of your refundable ticket or not flying at all.
Q20 kind of says you have a choice to be transported under Section 415 OR get a refund. I always thought when you flew under 415 you had to sign over your ticket to the airline you're flying. My guess is you're going to have to lie and/or commit fraud to get a refund and fly under 415.
Q21 kind of applies if you show up with a reservation but then want to fly standby. I can see an airline giving you the choice of flying under the terms of your refundable ticket or not flying at all.
Dec 6, 2005, 5:24 am
#35
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,254
Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Yes, the refundable tix can be unethical, from what I understood with the original tix revenue is something else. What I mean is that you are filling a complaint and getting the money back from your credit card, since they are only paying DH once they take off, any money you didn't request a refund to would go to Citibank or another company like that which has nothing to do with the flight. Thus, requesting a refund from them shouldn't impact the ethics in the whole situation. However, if the cost of the flight goes to the new airline then we have a whole another issue on our hands.
In any even you're no longer trying to defend the ethics of your actions.
Dec 6, 2005, 6:46 am
#36
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
How do you prove you had a reservation with DH when you go to the UAL desk, can you show a reservation print out? I mean anyone can make a fake one in about 1 minute. Also, if I file a complaint with master card and get a fair refund aren't i getting a flight for $50? From what I am hearing my translation of this is that I should book a lot of flights with indy for 2006. Then when they shut down I call up the card company and get my money back. After that, I fly standby for $50. To me this sounds like the deal of a lifetime. Other than $29 indy fairs which are less than the fee, but as far as flights to Vegas or San Juan its a real deal.
"It should be noted that passengers who purchased their Vanguard tickets using a credit card are entitled under the Fair Credit Billing Act to a credit refund from their credit card issuer, under specific circumstances, to the extent they do not receive the services for which they paid. If a passenger elects to accept alternate transportation under section 145, this choice is likely to affect his or her right to a refund under the Fair Credit Billing Act. The public may obtain information on obtaining refunds for Vanguard tickets on the Department’s website at http://www.dot.gov/airconsumer/vanguard.htm"
Dec 6, 2005, 8:22 am
#37
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
The only way to 'guarantee' you have a seat is to be the pilot. Other than that you might not get it if they oversell. This happened to me once and I didn't volunteer but was selected because no one wanted to take their crappy offer. Booking and canceling the fully refundable tix just improves your odds.
Dec 6, 2005, 8:35 am
#38
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Drew, you have my plan down. To address an the 30 to 60 days issue, my card is 60 days and basically indy just has to shut down with in the next 60 days and I can request the refund. I am not so much planning on doing a lot of travel like that. All i am saying is it is an interesting way of getting cheap seats. As for the ethics, if you have a problem with the law (section 145 i think) call your senator. I really dont see anything unethical about it. The card companies don't pay indy until the flight takes off. Plus if i am flying standby on another airline they are making money by having me on the plane at $50 per flight. Which is why there is that college student x-fare program, I think its on AirTran where students can fly standby for $59.
You really need to spend a year flying standby before you start extolling its virtues. I've looked at AirTran's X-fares program, and it's fairly useless to a college student. They flat out tell you that Fridays and Sundays are bad days to travel standby, and the times you're not in class, like holiday breaks, are filled with other college students trying to get places too. When I had NRSA priveleges, the only real way I made it work is that I had "backup" options on other carriers... options that sometimes I had to use, and weren't free. You're right about 6am flights -- if they work for you, great, but I used to hate getting up that early. Oh, and get this... I was planning a nice Biz seat on IAD to DEN because the flight was EMPTY. Guess what? Morning of departure, they downgraded it. $250 transcon, paid, earning miles, is a much better deal that $100 standby. This year, I also flew NW on a FULL 753 that was downgraded to a 752, resulting in about 30 or so IDB/VDB. Again, take it from somebody who knows what he's talking about, $100 standby is not the best deal in the world.
I am very very sorry, but I have to break the news to you: As somebody who has a lot of experience with standby travel, trips have to be planned VERY VERY carefully. Tix good only on one carrier that are NOT fully flexible (NRSA -- I could get on any UA flight to anywhere, pretty much just by showing up that the gate). You apparently under the 145 program have to make previous arrangements with the carrier. I do not know the restrictions on this, but flexibility is an absolute key to standby travel success. The type of flexibility I'm talking about is not available to you. You *do* have the privilege (okay, I'm not positive, but reasonably sure) that you have the ability of beating out NRSA employees for the seat, which is a huge bonus, but with the reduction in flight schedules and general capacity, I'm not sure how well that will bode for you.
P.S., I hope you like 23B, because that will most likely be one of the few seats left when you get your seat assignment.
Dec 12, 2005, 2:22 am
#39
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Am I an experienced standby traveler like you? no. Have i traveled a lot? yes. Are most flights I am on sold out? no. Whey flying DH this summer on the GLiDE pass i would frequently book night flights and fly in the AM on standby (yes i know DH doesn't do 'standby' but i showed up at the airport and was re-booked). I never had a problem and there was always and empty seat. While i am aware that DH over saturated the market with seat miles, there is still some margin today. Granted there are about 5% fewer seat miles so it might be tougher but if it takes me a day to get somewhere but it saves me $200. I made $200 for a days work of reading a book in an airport terminal. If i where to get a job like that on campus, such as swiping IDs (a job that is 95% sit and read a book 5% working) and the gym i would only get $5/hr. You are right standby is a ..... and that there is a chance i will get screwed, you are also right that getting a confirmed flight for a few $ more is better. So i will retract 'deal of a lifetime' and replace it with 'this month's special.'
Originally Posted by DHAST
Dude,
You really need to spend a year flying standby before you start extolling its virtues. I've looked at AirTran's X-fares program, and it's fairly useless to a college student. They flat out tell you that Fridays and Sundays are bad days to travel standby, and the times you're not in class, like holiday breaks, are filled with other college students trying to get places too. When I had NRSA priveleges, the only real way I made it work is that I had "backup" options on other carriers... options that sometimes I had to use, and weren't free. You're right about 6am flights -- if they work for you, great, but I used to hate getting up that early. Oh, and get this... I was planning a nice Biz seat on IAD to DEN because the flight was EMPTY. Guess what? Morning of departure, they downgraded it. $250 transcon, paid, earning miles, is a much better deal that $100 standby. This year, I also flew NW on a FULL 753 that was downgraded to a 752, resulting in about 30 or so IDB/VDB. Again, take it from somebody who knows what he's talking about, $100 standby is not the best deal in the world.
I am very very sorry, but I have to break the news to you: As somebody who has a lot of experience with standby travel, trips have to be planned VERY VERY carefully. Tix good only on one carrier that are NOT fully flexible (NRSA -- I could get on any UA flight to anywhere, pretty much just by showing up that the gate). You apparently under the 145 program have to make previous arrangements with the carrier. I do not know the restrictions on this, but flexibility is an absolute key to standby travel success. The type of flexibility I'm talking about is not available to you. You *do* have the privilege (okay, I'm not positive, but reasonably sure) that you have the ability of beating out NRSA employees for the seat, which is a huge bonus, but with the reduction in flight schedules and general capacity, I'm not sure how well that will bode for you.
P.S., I hope you like 23B, because that will most likely be one of the few seats left when you get your seat assignment.
You really need to spend a year flying standby before you start extolling its virtues. I've looked at AirTran's X-fares program, and it's fairly useless to a college student. They flat out tell you that Fridays and Sundays are bad days to travel standby, and the times you're not in class, like holiday breaks, are filled with other college students trying to get places too. When I had NRSA priveleges, the only real way I made it work is that I had "backup" options on other carriers... options that sometimes I had to use, and weren't free. You're right about 6am flights -- if they work for you, great, but I used to hate getting up that early. Oh, and get this... I was planning a nice Biz seat on IAD to DEN because the flight was EMPTY. Guess what? Morning of departure, they downgraded it. $250 transcon, paid, earning miles, is a much better deal that $100 standby. This year, I also flew NW on a FULL 753 that was downgraded to a 752, resulting in about 30 or so IDB/VDB. Again, take it from somebody who knows what he's talking about, $100 standby is not the best deal in the world.
I am very very sorry, but I have to break the news to you: As somebody who has a lot of experience with standby travel, trips have to be planned VERY VERY carefully. Tix good only on one carrier that are NOT fully flexible (NRSA -- I could get on any UA flight to anywhere, pretty much just by showing up that the gate). You apparently under the 145 program have to make previous arrangements with the carrier. I do not know the restrictions on this, but flexibility is an absolute key to standby travel success. The type of flexibility I'm talking about is not available to you. You *do* have the privilege (okay, I'm not positive, but reasonably sure) that you have the ability of beating out NRSA employees for the seat, which is a huge bonus, but with the reduction in flight schedules and general capacity, I'm not sure how well that will bode for you.
P.S., I hope you like 23B, because that will most likely be one of the few seats left when you get your seat assignment.
Dec 12, 2005, 8:14 am
#40
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Am I an experienced standby traveler like you? no. Have i traveled a lot? yes. Are most flights I am on sold out? no.
Whey flying DH this summer on the GLiDE pass i would frequently book night flights and fly in the AM on standby (yes i know DH doesn't do 'standby' but i showed up at the airport and was re-booked). I never had a problem and there was always and empty seat.
While i am aware that DH over saturated the market with seat miles, there is still some margin today. Granted there are about 5% fewer seat miles so it might be tougher but if it takes me a day to get somewhere but it saves me $200.
I made $200 for a days work of reading a book in an airport terminal. If i where to get a job like that on campus, such as swiping IDs (a job that is 95% sit and read a book 5% working) and the gym i would only get $5/hr. You are right standby is a ..... and that there is a chance i will get screwed, you are also right that getting a confirmed flight for a few $ more is better. So i will retract 'deal of a lifetime' and replace it with 'this month's special.'
Also, you didn't make $200, but you did save it if you never spent it About the money thing... In case you care, last year I made silver status on NW by spending less than $1000 out of pocket. I got about $800 in bump vouchers from CO. I guess it's fare to say that CO and I split the cost of my silver status. This year I've spent quite a bit more to achieve Plat status, but I think it is still under $3000. NW kicked in a few bump vouchers, but by and large, there's nothing like being "guaranteed" an F seat on a transcon on a $250 fare. Now, I don't have to check loads the day before I go, I don't have to get up at 0400 to make sure I get on my flight, I don't have to worry about cancellations and delays earlier in the day, or misconnecting to the one flight that was my only hope. One of the reasons I fly NW is because of their upgrade policy, unlike UA...
Dec 12, 2005, 1:40 pm
#41
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Actully I go to school in Lancaster, PA, but i worked in DC this past summer and had to do a lot of traveling. As for flying, if i am standing at the gate and there is an empty seat and i have a standby ticket, are you saying i might not get the seat? Thus the plane would take off with a less than 100% load factor?
Originally Posted by DHAST
That doesn't mean that the open seat was one that *you* would have gotten. In reality, it is nearly impossible to tell the exact status of the flight without inside information. The flight can be oversold and go out with open seats, it can be booked solid and go out with no seats. Hell, flying on NW this summer, those flights were jam packed, and I scored a whopping two bumps. Not full enough to get bumped, but too full for comfort for standby pax.
With few exceptions, early AM is the best time to travel standby on anybody to anywhere. What happens after day long delays and cancellations and you try to get on the last flight of the night and then get screwed? Like I said earlier, if you can make 0600 work for you, great. Personally, I hated it.
Well, when they go BK which is what you're expecting, ALL of their lift and ALL of their pax will be trying to go standby on the remaining flights of other carriers. Both capacity goes down and demand goes up.
Where did you go to school? I went to college in DC. My ID checking job required that people swipe their ID's... I didn't have to do it for them Also, you didn't make $200, but you did save it if you never spent it
About the money thing... In case you care, last year I made silver status on NW by spending less than $1000 out of pocket. I got about $800 in bump vouchers from CO. I guess it's fare to say that CO and I split the cost of my silver status. This year I've spent quite a bit more to achieve Plat status, but I think it is still under $3000. NW kicked in a few bump vouchers, but by and large, there's nothing like being "guaranteed" an F seat on a transcon on a $250 fare. Now, I don't have to check loads the day before I go, I don't have to get up at 0400 to make sure I get on my flight, I don't have to worry about cancellations and delays earlier in the day, or misconnecting to the one flight that was my only hope. One of the reasons I fly NW is because of their upgrade policy, unlike UA...
With few exceptions, early AM is the best time to travel standby on anybody to anywhere. What happens after day long delays and cancellations and you try to get on the last flight of the night and then get screwed? Like I said earlier, if you can make 0600 work for you, great. Personally, I hated it.
Well, when they go BK which is what you're expecting, ALL of their lift and ALL of their pax will be trying to go standby on the remaining flights of other carriers. Both capacity goes down and demand goes up.
Where did you go to school? I went to college in DC. My ID checking job required that people swipe their ID's... I didn't have to do it for them
Also, you didn't make $200, but you did save it if you never spent it About the money thing... In case you care, last year I made silver status on NW by spending less than $1000 out of pocket. I got about $800 in bump vouchers from CO. I guess it's fare to say that CO and I split the cost of my silver status. This year I've spent quite a bit more to achieve Plat status, but I think it is still under $3000. NW kicked in a few bump vouchers, but by and large, there's nothing like being "guaranteed" an F seat on a transcon on a $250 fare. Now, I don't have to check loads the day before I go, I don't have to get up at 0400 to make sure I get on my flight, I don't have to worry about cancellations and delays earlier in the day, or misconnecting to the one flight that was my only hope. One of the reasons I fly NW is because of their upgrade policy, unlike UA...
Dec 12, 2005, 9:07 pm
#42
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Actully I go to school in Lancaster, PA, but i worked in DC this past summer and had to do a lot of traveling. As for flying, if i am standing at the gate and there is an empty seat and i have a standby ticket, are you saying i might not get the seat? Thus the plane would take off with a less than 100% load factor?
Dec 15, 2005, 12:16 pm
#43
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Actully I go to school in Lancaster, PA, but i worked in DC this past summer and had to do a lot of traveling. As for flying, if i am standing at the gate and there is an empty seat and i have a standby ticket, are you saying i might not get the seat? Thus the plane would take off with a less than 100% load factor?
Dec 15, 2005, 12:44 pm
#44
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Originally Posted by HeathrowGuy
Absolutely, and especially if the flights are operated with regional jets or turboprops, or with mainline birds that have to take a payload hit for some reason.
Dec 16, 2005, 2:00 am
#45
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ClimbGuy,
I don't believe that you would be able to get your money refunded if you ended up flying. The reason is this:
Originially you purchase a ticket on FlyI, they go belly-up, you decide to go standby on UAL using your FlyI receipt or credit card statement or whatever. Any of these would have your Eticket number on them. By flying UAL, they become the owners of your ticket. A request for the value of your ticket is sent by UAL to a clearinghouse that moves money from "possession" of one airline to another. Your credit card company would probably have to go through this clearinghouse, they would then see that the ticket has been used, thus no refund.
Regards,
Zach
I don't believe that you would be able to get your money refunded if you ended up flying. The reason is this:
Originially you purchase a ticket on FlyI, they go belly-up, you decide to go standby on UAL using your FlyI receipt or credit card statement or whatever. Any of these would have your Eticket number on them. By flying UAL, they become the owners of your ticket. A request for the value of your ticket is sent by UAL to a clearinghouse that moves money from "possession" of one airline to another. Your credit card company would probably have to go through this clearinghouse, they would then see that the ticket has been used, thus no refund.
Regards,
Zach