E1A

Most of the wish list requests for changes to programs are primarily in the customers interest and do not take into account corporate interest or the cost the company would have to bear in providing them to the guests.

I would like to suggest 2 related changes to Hyatt Gold Passport that would actually help Hyatt more than the customers and make the program a lot more competitive and attractive at no cost to Hyatt

Gold Passport Concierge is probably the highest and most efficient feedback link that we have to the program so really hope he/she chimes in on this.

1) Give stay/nights credit for multiple rooms on same day at same property

Right now its a counter productive policy which essentially results in a message to the consumer that says if you want to give us more business (more rooms and revenue), give it to Starwood instead (who do credit multiple stays/nights)

Points are an actual direct cost to the program and you give those already anyway.
Nights/stays are merely an indirect virtual cost (more/faster top tier members) that is not realised immediately or at all (if they don't make it to top tier) and is more than offset/recovered by the incremental revenue that they are now handing over to you (even more true if they do it enough to become top tier). You surely want more top tier members who are booking more rooms more frequently, that is after all the whole point of the program to begin with, to accumulate predictable repeat guests.

Right now you ensure you are losing business to the chains that do provide stay/night credit for multiple rooms. I know I am personally booking Starwood without thought for all group travel whereas you have a fair pie of my personal travel business (I am top tier with both programs). Right now if a guest is aware of this policy difference, you are effecitvely out of the family vacation/group travel market for them.

For a 2 week annual vacation - 3 night stay each in 5 foreign cities for 3 rooms (parents, kids, friends etc);
Starwood returns 15 stay/45 nights credit!!
Hyatt returns only 5 stays/15 nights....

Even when a Hyatt property is better located or cheaper, Starwood gets the business from me because that difference is just huge. It just makes no sense to book Hyatt for any sort of group travel.

Again, you are already incurring the direct costs (points), I'm merely saying its a great idea for you to also provide the nights/stay which are merely a (possible) indirect cost to you (more/faster top tier members) and will actually result in a lot of incremental revenue. I don't think I have to make the case for why more members are a good thing for the program as that is the entire premise of the program to begin with. Top tier members are your most lucrative segment. The likelyhood of this being exploited by guests during corporate travel is nil (they dont pay for each other and are all members themselves so everyone collects their credit) and so there is little downside whereas you would really bring in a lot more family travel by the same people who choose your company when travelling solo or as a couple.

There is no reason for you to automatically lose out on the extra business. Any policy of a loyalty/rewards program that is resulting in less business for the company itself needs to immediately change.


2) Give stay/nights credit for multiple rooms on same day at different properties

I keep hearing two things over and over again in all Hyatt related discussions (that I searched for in this forum) and communications (from GP reps). "You can't be in two places at once" and the (incorrect) common knowledge that Hyatt only grants 1 stay/night credit for any number of rooms across any number of properties in one single day.

Both of these are wrong. I absolutely can be in 2 (or even three) properties in a single day (obvious not at the same time). Let me just outline some examples:

1) When flying across timezones
2) When living out of a Hyatt and visiting any other place and also booking a Hyatt
3) When you have family travel that temporarily splits up in nearby properties(dad prefers going to Monaco for the day, mom and kids prefer Cannes which is a short drive away)
4) When checking out very late out of one property and very early into the next
5) When you book at a property that you don't like or was the only one available while booking and then find another that is more ideal and move in same day (usually because of location or preference for an important event like an anniversary, cost is obviously not a factor when doing this)
6) When you might use a airport hotel Hyatt at a transit airport and then another at final destination
7) Day use rates (when you don't stay overnight)

Or relatively less common ones that I recently got caught up in:
8) When you move houses across cities (you have booking at both Hyatts in both cities for a short period of about a week so you can move back and forth during the transition period when both houses are unlivable)
9) Celebrating my birthday with friends in a suite at a nearby Hyatt resort whilst moving and living in a regular room at a regular non-fancy Hyatt

So I provide not one, two but seven common ways (and two uncommon ones) in which I can be at different Hyatts in the same day. Same as the multi stay/night at same property point above, right now Hyatt's message is effectively "don't choose us for these scenarios" because of the added hassle. However, some of these scenarios are relatively common and each represents lost revenue and opportunity.

Together, the two points provide a sum total of at least 90% of my annual hotel spend (most of it is on vacations and while travelling and having to check in or out at irregular times). That's 90% of my revenue that you leave on the table and that I will spend with some other chain despite my preference for Hyatt.

You are usually good about making the manual corrections for one of those (timezone hoppers) but every other case represents a hassle in getting it credited. It is fine if you ask for proof or I have to send an email, that is not what I consider an hassle. But most of the time some reps will email back saying there is already an existing stay (so?) or not reply at all or not credit it either and I have to get the property to chase after it on my behalf (and they are happy to, but they shouldn't have to). GP frequently tells the property that a guest can't be in two places at once or that "T&C state that...". This is just wrong and even borderline illegal coz T&C don't cover stays at multiple properties at all, you'd have to use conjecture or hide behind the "we reserve right to do anything" clause to say that this is in the T&C. Infact T&C make it clear that if there were multiple rooms (max 3) at same property then you get at least the points for them so why doesn't this consistently happen for different properties? As soon as I hear things from people like, "gaming the system" it makes me cringe because this is an exact case of NOT gaming the system and being a totally legit case which is NOT against the T&C. It also really really pushes my buttons when someone tells me I can't be in two places at one time because all I am claiming is to be in multiple places over the course of a whole day and not the ridiculous ability of being omnipresent. The properties have witnessed me there, Front office staff will have seen me there, this is not a phantom stay, this is not a no show. This is me being a registered guest (Except in #3, though even there its family) and me paying the bill.

This whole thing should be as simple as - give Hyatt revenue, take the associated points/nights/stay credit. More legit revenue, more credit!
Each of these bookings is a legit booking you want, this is revenue you want. The potential for abuse is commonly cited but very limited, you always ask for ID anyway when checking in. There is no scope for abuse then. You KNOW if a customer has been there or not, if he was physically present or not. If guest was present, don't try to deny his existence in space-time!

I am not asking for unlimited suite upgrades, breakfast for platinums, car pick up drop off or anything that is not financially practical or immediately implementable. I am merely asking for you guys to make it easier to give you money.

Even your own staff is so confused about this since many say different things like "you should get the points but probably not the night/stay credit" (this is fairly logical given current T&C) or "no sir, T&C state that you can't get credit for different properties" (this is incorrect, T&C don't cover this at all) or "yea if its different properties then you should get separate stay and night credit" (also logical and does often happen, sometimes you have to push).

Again, the purpose of the program is to increase revenue, not police the guests stay patterns. Just like above, any policy that gets in the way of a customer handing you more money is an illogical policy and should be reversed. Not to mention it is borderline illegal to "quote" T&C when its not actually covered in T&C and hence it might be Hyatt who is in violation of the spirit of the T&C by denying these legit stays.

Jimgotkp

TL;DR

bdemaria

Somewhere in this missive may be the two greatest suggestions for a loyalty program improvement ever offered on a talk board - but the chance of anyone reading through all of this to find them is not at all good.

E1A

Sorry about that. I will try to edit and add a TL;DR version on top now

Usually most of the arguments and to and fro on a thread can be avoided by a proper detailed explanation from the get go so I thought I'd post a detailed analysis right away else eventually people will ask questions and post things and ultimately the word count will be the same (in distinct posts) rather than one single one.

But yea, will add a TL;DR version now

Thanks for feedback

antonius66

The argument has already been made before many a time, by many others, including myself. It has fallen on deaf ears. SPG gives credit for multiple rooms, so there is definitely precedent but don't hold your breath. I have made the exact same arguments you make regarding multiple rooms per night and credit but they obviously don't want to do it for some reason. I could not agree more. If I personally pay for 3 rooms for 7 nights, not giving me 21 nights is absurd. I paid for them, I brought the business, I drove the revenue to you...reward me accordingly.

E1A

I did go through a ton of threads and posts about this before I posted, perhaps I missed yours, do link me, I'd definitely give it a read.

Sadly, most of the threads were really old from (when people really wanted to do this as part of FFN). The competitive landscape has changed since then and like you pointed out, we now have a couple major chains that implement this (Starwood being the obvious competitor to Hyatt in terms of quality and footprint, but also some other larger ones do) so now its not just a matter of common sense but also of competitive parity since now it will actually make them lose business which wasn't the case before.

That's a massive incentive to now implement it.

I think not implementing it thus far may have been an oversight since there are multiple aspects of HGP that seem not very well thought through. It is kind of a secondary thing that got lost amongst the big items that grab their attention so we really need to get the message to them that this is something that is now affecting their bottom line in at least some way. I'd wager that Gold Passport Concierge escalating this to his superiors armed with backing of FT is going to work better than isolated instances of feedback or distributed grumblings in various threads.

The key thing here for them to understand themselves is that they don't incur any more direct costs from this (they already give us the points for three rooms), so its a win win. There is almost no trade off here.

And for multiple night/stays across properties, they already sometimes kind of sort of credit them, they just have to start doing it more consistently and stop baulking at instances of it happening

RTW1

I can see people arguing for the first, the second I find to be a bit over the top since when there is a legitimate use to do it you will get night credit anyway.

But I'm not sure I'm in favor of any of the two changes, even when I also book multiple rooms occasionally. I think status should be for personal use not for group use. Your changes will only lead to an increase in status members without (in my opinion) adding much to the revenue. It will also encourage people to simply buy status by booking x rooms at the Luxor and checking in once for all of them. And then the argument becomes how many rooms should be acceptable at the same time, 2/4/all? We don't really need any more loopholes for people to exploit since in the end it will not end nicely for all of us.

People that have enough stays and value status will make the effort to reach the thresholds anyway. Others will book a one off event for multiple rooms and rake in the night credit.
And your argument that there is no trade off here is a bit lame. If that's really the case why would you want any changes... It's obvious that it would make your qualification easier, but status does cost GP money.

Try qualifying within the current rules at least one time first, instead of promoting mattress runs when you've only qualified by way of the challenge....

FlugE

I agree totally with above.

One thing I'd like HGP to add though is to give night credits for the actual nights you stay with them. Instead, they sometimes have rates where one night does not count (you have to read the rate rules carefully). For example a 3-for-2 rate which gives points for all nights but not night credits.

Coming from Hilton who give 5 nights for "5th night free" and even nights for reward bookings I learned this the hard way and missed out on 30,000 Gold Points (14 out of 15 nights in the "Stay More Play More" promo)

RTW1

Yes, those free night offers can be inconsistent in the way they are coded by the property... sometimes you get all nights but sometimes the free night doesn't count. I've also seen that happen with other programs like Club Carlson.

E1A

You do get them, but you have to really chase after them and they are inconsistent about it (I have it credited 100% of the time, but its inconsistent who will and will not listen, so sometimes you have to send it once and it is done, sometimes several times, sometimes get the property involved because the properties do really care about this since they are the ones who actually hosted you and will be more apologetic if Gold Passport treats it as a no show/phantom booking)

Its not a loophole if they do it this way. I think you are misunderstanding how loyalty programs work. Every incremental dollar you will give Hyatt is revenue they want, there isn't a decreasing marginal benefit here, its an increasing marginal benefit. So if they can incentise people to book more travel with them, that is money in their pockets. The points vs dollars equation is in their favour for each booking we make.

Yes it could lead to people booking multiple rooms (only 3 at once) and getting to the threshold faster, so? The bar doesn't move, they still have to do 50 nights or 25 stays, if they do it, then they are legit and reward them accordingly. Its not like they now have lower thresholds. If qualification is night/stay based and they are meeting it then why should you be rewarded for being slower to get there? There is an element of elitism and hostility to new members in your thinking even when they might actually give Hyatt just as much business.

You are still tied up in the consumer facing side of it. To Hyatt, its the money that matters. In reality, most programs should be revenue based (and there is a trend towards that now and its accepted within the loyalty program industry whether in retail or even airlines, though only one large hotel chain currently has it revenue based). Every dollar has the same value whether its from me or you, if lets say 20,000 USD is what they need to start giving me top tier benefits, then I give it to them and they give me top tier benefits. The same applies to you, you just choose to give it to them in a different way. The threshold is the same though. No much how much you want to think about it, you are not a significantly better Diamond than anyone else who has the same amount of consistent spend with Hyatt. If I keep giving them meeting and wedding revenue and you give them room revenue, they value both. I arguably give them more exposure though, maybe I'm the better Diamond.. (I don't believe so, but that's how your line of thinking goes)

The argument for how many rooms should be legit is easy. The whole program should be quite as simple as you get what you pay for. If I book the entire hotel, give me the associated benefits. You might balk at this but financially for Hyatt, this makes sense. Every dollar they extract out of me, they return the proportional points and each incremental transaction is beneficial to them. So you might consider that absurd but Hyatt will be very happy if everyone started booking mass blocks and paying for them legitimately. You can only do this if you are the one paying the costs and if you are indeed paying them the necessary dollars to be a Diamond, then you're a real Diamond, simple no?

You may not be happy that someone made Diamond in a day for a wedding. But from a pure numbers perspective, Hyatt would love to host that wedding instead of a competitor, the points vs dollars equation is in their favour. I cannot stress that enough.

I recognise that it does, Points cost them direct money (hotels pay GP for them and GP pays hotel back when someone makes an award booking) however nights/stay credits are an indirect cost whereby you give more/faster benefits IF a guest spends enough to make top tier. And if he did spend enough, then Hyatt won already. Again points and dollars is in their favour, if it makes my qualification easier, that's not bad thing for them if I am actually spending money with them

I think a doubling in Diamond members would really annoy you and encroach on your territory but for Hyatt, that's precisely what they want. If these guys make top tier by spending actual money, then they are in every way REAL diamonds (not people who are temporarily buying status without spending money). For you twice as many Diamonds is a bad thing, for Hyatt it is a good thing (provided they are not status matched ones that they cannot retain, they surely would love status challenged ones that match the spending profile though).

More members will not necessarily dilute benefits contrary to what people seem to fear, since it is adding to company's bottom line. The company just expands instead. All competitors have magnitudes of more members (at least 2x, sometimes 10x), they are proportionally larger in terms of footprint and revenue. All these competitors run programs that are broadly similar in benefits. So scale doesn't work against the Hotels at all, it works for them, this is what Hyatt wants, this is why Challenge and matching programs exist.

So really that's the context of every single reply of yours to me in this and other threads. You are not happy that I made Hyatt Diamond via Status Challenge. Glad you stated it.

Of course you chose to ignore that I am also Starwood Platinum, Hilton Gold, Accor Gold and Ritz Carlton/Marriott Silver and it is only still March of the year. I'll be very open, out of these Hyatt is challenged (but already on 30+ nights), Hilton is via another exclusivity program courtesy invitation. Everything else is earned the traditional way. Want to take a guess at the stay density? Do the Math. Please.

Its also evident where I am from, so you might like to know we do not have credit card shortcuts here, I have no access to "bought" mid tier status. You might also like to know that I am a returning Diamond, I was Diamond for a few years about half a decade ago and then moved to a city without a single Hyatt, then they opened their entire portfolio here and I am back but took the best option available to me. All your assumptions are just wrong.

I also don't have anyone sponsoring my stays, my company doesn't pay for them. The overwhelming number of HGP high tier members are corporate customers where the bill is footed by someone else. I do not know if you are one of them and I will not make that assumption. But how is it that money out of my own pocket can ever be considered as a shortcut whereas the overwhelming majority of HGP customers who are staying on someone else's money are legit? Food for thought

Regardless, my arguments stand on their own merit and not based on my status, history or post count. If they make sense and are logical, you can't wish them away on account of other factors. Taking a personal swipe at me doesn't undo the business sense it makes for Hyatt to do exactly as I am suggesting (as other chains have done for the same reasons)

Then you say "instead of promoting mattress runs". Promptly ignoring that none of the cases I highlighted are mattress running. For that matter, promptly ignoring that hotels don't mind mattress running at all since while you are obsessed with being a legit customer, hotels care about bottom line. Money is money, they don't care what the purpose was. If the purpose was to build status, they want that, they want people to get sucked into the status game and spend more. Top Tier customers are the most lucrative and predictable

RTW1

Not really... that was the way for me to get Diamond status too the first time. It's a great offer. Qualifying with the current thresholds is hard for most of us where Hyatt has a limited presence.

What I don't get is the constant need to comment or change what you got. They made a generous offer to give you Diamond status after 12 nights. In your case the hotel sponsoring you has made a mistake in communicating when the challenge started (or not verifying that GP had processed the application), I agree that's a pretty big mistake to make.

But the program is what it is, use it instead of trying to change it the moment you joined. And also accept that my opinion about your proposed changes is just that..... just as valid as yours, and not totally driven by personal gain either. I just see the potential for abuse that will most likely affect me in the end. I like maximizing benefits too, but if everybody has top status we will end up like HHonors.

Do you really think GP will be happy when people qualify for Diamond on 30+ rooms at the Luxor for $50 a night where the revenue goes to MGM? That's a sure way to end the partnership, and it's just one example for abuse I can think of. FT and the bloggers will think of lots more ;-).
But good luck with writing a book on FT and thinking that will have an effect though.

nineworldseries

I would just be happy to see Hyatt give stay/night credit for award stays. That is really the only thing I'd like them to change regarding Diamond benefits.

E1A

That's a different thing though, that has no bearing on this. This is just an honest observation about an easy way to improve the program without costs that are prohibitive. Every suggestion for improvement has some cost to the hotel, this has the least or no cost depending on how we look at it. Free breakfasts, late check out etc are all costs that don't stimulate any additional direct revenue but are a direct cost.

This is opposite, this is a direct revenue generator with only an indirect cost that they already consider worth it. So we have a very strong case for these changes since they really favour Hyatt. Hence, win win

I'm not new to the program(s). Starwood since 1999 and Hyatt since early 00s, have held top tier multiple times in past. I din't just join, its just that now there is a certain case to be strongly made since a bunch of chains have taken some steps in a direction that makes them more competitive at no cost and Hyatt hasn't. Most such requests are pointless because of a cost associated with them but like I explained in perhaps too much detail above, this really is a favourable financial equation to Hyatt. I suspect they simply haven't noticed/come around to this specific aspect and this is probably the best way to make them have a look at this.

Regardings HHonours, I don't consider the chain on par with Starwood or Hyatt quality wise but they do have scale and their program is on par *after* the points genocide. Crunching the numbers shows their spend/night needed is now at par with competitors and their not-top-tier Gold status gives you benefits on par with Starwood or Hyatt top tier (breakfast, early check in , late check out, room upgrades including upto suites but you have to ask, its not automatic due to T&C differences). Minor differences and YMMV but objectively from a birds eye view, HHonours Gold is on par with Hyatt Diamond and Starwood Platinum beyond the fact that Hilton itself isn't as aspirational maybe. They get a bad rap but the math is out there on a bunch of blogs.

I apologise for the verbiose posts, but we'd have had this discussion anyway in multiple pages otherwise.

Realistically I don't expect more than 3 rooms to be granted. Hyatt and Starwood already devalue it significantly past 10 and 20 rooms respectively (when they treat it as a meeting/large group and different rules kick in)

The Luxor example is no different from a ton of Hyatt Place properties or even Regencies and Grands at Corporate rates (or even otherwise) based on where you live. I can stay for 100 a night at the finest Grand Hyatt in my region, less for perhaps a top 10% Place. A Park Hyatt can be had for 100 USD on public rates in some new developing markets and probably 50 on corporate! So that's not a new issue, its just an existing one. This would be resolved by it being revenue based rather than stay/nights as it should be but that's their call, not mine. That would be a huge change that would need to be assessed by them whereas I'm proposing a minor change that they already have the cost/benefit analysis answer to and is merely the logical extension of what they already somewhat inconsistently do rather than a ground up new approach

BTW, they do status match MGM elites and MGM elites can easily book Luxor. You are conflating too many things. Focus on the fact that points are a real currency convertible in ways to real money and the companies dont just trade it with us. They trade it with each other internally, MGM or Hyatt would pay each other in real dollars to compensate each other.

This is much much less absurd than people earning mid tier status straight away with a credit card application (those partnerships aren't terminated for a reason, no company loses out, they get paid)
It is much less absurd than people earning status on someone else's spend (A corporation, which could shift the purchasing decision, so is this customer really loyal? Does he have the power to be since he doesn't always make the decision? So what are you rewarding them for? Why not reward the company instead?). I don't actually want that, but Devil's advocate
It is much less absurd than straight up status matches (as opposed to challenges) where you get rewarded for loyalty to a competitor in hopes they can poach you.

I know the posts are long and verbiose but if you take the time to reflect and analyse them, I have outlined very good reasons why this is a no-brainer, from Hyatt's perspective. Every concern of yours was already addressed there.
Nothing you have pointed out would be a new issue due to this change, none of those concerns have shown to have come true in the case of competitors.
Competitors have made the change and are not reversing it, they are benefiting from it and happy about it. Logic wise, this is airtight

antonius66

Previous discussion...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hyatt...room-paid.html

Also, I have been Diamond for 4 years the "hard way" and I agree with the points made regarding the first idea 100%. So, regardless of if this person has been Diamond for 10 minutes or 10 years, the point is still valid and I don't think it is diminished by their time as a Diamond. I don't care about the second as much given how infrequent I think that is, and I think its fair enough to give you 1 hotel at a time for 1 night.

E1A

Just went through it. Something caught my interest, could you really become a Diamond by booking 50 nights at once for the same day for yourself back in 2012? (Which would obviously an event/meeting).

I can't find an archived version of the T&C. Right now of course if you exceed 10 rooms, it is automatically classed as a meeting/group event and your points earning is diluted 5 times so 50 rooms would give credit for 10 rooms and 15 rooms would give credit for 3. They system of stays/night credit doesn't exist in this situation and instead 3 such meetings make you platinum and 10 make you Diamond. So to be Diamond you have to do a minimum of 100 meeting room nights or 500 in personal nights equivalent. There are a ton of holes in it but they at least are clear about the legal terms and their spirit.

SPGs group side (SPG Pro) is a lot worse and as a result whilst small group bookings are exclusively with SPG, large ones they are the worst for (though Hyatt is neither here nor there and Marriott (usually Ritz) gets it always 100% of the time since they consider each event a 10 night equivalent towards elite tier)