Mar 16, 2016, 12:06 pm
Last edit by: intuition
List of participants in order of declaration. Event limited to 10 participants, list filled by members until post #98 in the original thread. Feel free to add yourself to the list as a reserve. Please strike (using [strike tag) your name if you cannot participate.
Guest list:
1. wkndtraveler
2. ffay005
3. OH-LGG
4. intuition
5. Unsub
6. SPBanker
7. lauriii
8. Purjelentaja
9. heatsink
10. Courmish
11. cistavoda
12. Aviating
13. FFlash (what a coincidence the number...)
14. skba1 (reading back through the thread I saw skba1 throwing his name in the ring, but didn't add it here /intuition)
15. WilcoRoger
============ Limit 15 ====
=+=+=+=+=+= Members who announced interest in UX session +=+=+=+=+=+
This list has moved to its new home, in http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/finnair-finnair-plus/1761182-finnair-user-experience-sessions-stuff-spearated-meeting-ay-loyalty.html
Guest list:
1. wkndtraveler
2. ffay005
3. OH-LGG
4. intuition
5. Unsub
6. SPBanker
7. lauriii
8. Purjelentaja
9. heatsink
10. Courmish
11. cistavoda
12. Aviating
13. FFlash (what a coincidence the number...)
14. skba1 (reading back through the thread I saw skba1 throwing his name in the ring, but didn't add it here /intuition)
15. WilcoRoger
============ Limit 15 ====
=+=+=+=+=+= Members who announced interest in UX session +=+=+=+=+=+
This list has moved to its new home, in http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/finnair-finnair-plus/1761182-finnair-user-experience-sessions-stuff-spearated-meeting-ay-loyalty.html
Meeting with AY+ Loyalty Team 18APR2016 @5pm
Mar 17, 2016, 3:06 am
#31
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,042
To me, one of the key areas where AY+ could improve is upgrades. Several other airlines automatically bump up their top tier customers as long as there are empty seats in the front. AY, on the other hand, only seems to do that if they absolutely have to, i.e. when the back of the plane is overbooked.
I rather would have an upgrade guarantee for the vouchers (as long as I can book J on that flight).
Mar 17, 2016, 4:26 am
#32
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
I think the standby for earlier flight is something we could try to suggest. It would be a very valuable perk for the passenger and, if done the right way, should cost AY practically nothing.
My suggestion: AY status members may at the check-in desk (with or without baggage) or at the gate (without baggage) ask to be moved to an earlier flight. If there's availability, agent changes the ticket right away. No costs involved.
As everyone else, my recent experiences are really bad. Last time at ARN, the ~1 pm flight was on time, the ~2 pm was delayed by some 90 mins, making people lose their Asian connections at HEL. When I asked to be moved to the earlier flight, the reply was a flat no even before they knew whether I had a connection, what status I hold etc. Wouldn't it have saved AY money to move people to the earlier ARN-HEL flight instead of arranging accommodations and booking competitors' flights once the pax get to HEL?
My suggestion: AY status members may at the check-in desk (with or without baggage) or at the gate (without baggage) ask to be moved to an earlier flight. If there's availability, agent changes the ticket right away. No costs involved.
As everyone else, my recent experiences are really bad. Last time at ARN, the ~1 pm flight was on time, the ~2 pm was delayed by some 90 mins, making people lose their Asian connections at HEL. When I asked to be moved to the earlier flight, the reply was a flat no even before they knew whether I had a connection, what status I hold etc. Wouldn't it have saved AY money to move people to the earlier ARN-HEL flight instead of arranging accommodations and booking competitors' flights once the pax get to HEL?
Mar 17, 2016, 4:46 am
#33
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far
Discussion on what we would like to be changed with AY+ and AY service has been quite active this far, on several threads. I tried to collect issues and opinions from those threads to make some kind of summary to help structure this discussion.
The main categories:
- AY+
- Booking & tickets
- Net pages
- At the airport
- Onboard
- A350
- Listen to customers
- Other issues
I'm sure something is missing as the discussion has been so spread out, but we still have plenty of time before that meeting to get all out and summarised into structured package.
Let's continue throwing ideas and opinions, and perhaps it will be easier to summarize all now after the discussions and opinions this far have been categorized. If something you have already taken up is missing, take it up again so that it won't be forgotten!
The main categories:
- AY+
- Booking & tickets
- Net pages
- At the airport
- Onboard
- A350
- Listen to customers
- Other issues
I'm sure something is missing as the discussion has been so spread out, but we still have plenty of time before that meeting to get all out and summarised into structured package.
Let's continue throwing ideas and opinions, and perhaps it will be easier to summarize all now after the discussions and opinions this far have been categorized. If something you have already taken up is missing, take it up again so that it won't be forgotten!
Mar 17, 2016, 4:48 am
#34
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far: AY+
AY+
- Latest enhancements are considered mainly as improvements and thus welcomed
- Make upgrades easier to get: Upgrade guarantee for the vouchers and for top tier members also with points (as long as I can book J on that flight)
- Upgrades should be a waitlist in order of status when upgrades are processed though?
- Award and tier points should be calculated based on the class traveled, not the one booked, like BA is doing it. If I upgrade my ticket from economy to business class by cash, I should also receive the business class points.
- Platinum customer service:
- Lounge vouchers for elites, where you can double/triple your lounge admittance for quite a low point value. Meaning that ay+p could take eg 3 guests with a voucher(s). Little like JL has. I sometimes travel with friends and it is always little sad how I must choose between skipping the lounge or leaving 1-2 friends outside.
- The lifetime tiers
- Why is platinum and gold considered the same "top tier status" when Finnair communicates? Finnair should uphold the value of Platinum better! Can Platinum be distinguished better?
- Probably the best part about the AY+ programme is that any Y fares are eligible for an upgrade with points, and there's no copay needed. Sure, the longhaul upgrades require a whole lot of points and the days of the 35k NA upgrades are long gone, but it's still a very good benefit.
- Points should be non-expiring, like for instance BA miles that don't expire even for Blue members
- Events and special offers for higher tier members
- Latest enhancements are considered mainly as improvements and thus welcomed
- Make upgrades easier to get: Upgrade guarantee for the vouchers and for top tier members also with points (as long as I can book J on that flight)
- Upgrades should be a waitlist in order of status when upgrades are processed though?
- Award and tier points should be calculated based on the class traveled, not the one booked, like BA is doing it. If I upgrade my ticket from economy to business class by cash, I should also receive the business class points.
- Platinum customer service:
o Hit and miss: some are real professionals, some doesn’t know anything. There should be a dedicated Finnair Plus team serving Platinum customers.
o Emails are answered way too slowly: it might take two or more days to receive a reply to simple questions. Chat doesn't work at all.
o Finnair Plus representative should be more active here on FlyerTalk and communicate with us (some companies has their own active FT representatives)
- Extra award points for gold/platinums, like eg. AA has.o Emails are answered way too slowly: it might take two or more days to receive a reply to simple questions. Chat doesn't work at all.
o Finnair Plus representative should be more active here on FlyerTalk and communicate with us (some companies has their own active FT representatives)
- Lounge vouchers for elites, where you can double/triple your lounge admittance for quite a low point value. Meaning that ay+p could take eg 3 guests with a voucher(s). Little like JL has. I sometimes travel with friends and it is always little sad how I must choose between skipping the lounge or leaving 1-2 friends outside.
- The lifetime tiers
o It takes some 30 years of plat to get lifetime tier. Compare this to other programs, where 10 (consecutive) years of status can be enough. I think the current system does not drive any loyalty in the big group of members who joined since say 2005.
o One idea would be to consider a Alternative lifetime system, like the one ANA is operating. In this system flyers earns "badges", each with a (one) named lifetime perk. It could be lounge access, voided bag fees and so on. Such a system could operate parallel with the current lifetime tier, and be very attractive for newer members. It would be cheaper for Finnair to give away one single perk for lifetime AND it would inspire loyalty for all flyers, even among those who already achieved one "badge".
- Tier status for junior members?o One idea would be to consider a Alternative lifetime system, like the one ANA is operating. In this system flyers earns "badges", each with a (one) named lifetime perk. It could be lounge access, voided bag fees and so on. Such a system could operate parallel with the current lifetime tier, and be very attractive for newer members. It would be cheaper for Finnair to give away one single perk for lifetime AND it would inspire loyalty for all flyers, even among those who already achieved one "badge".
- Why is platinum and gold considered the same "top tier status" when Finnair communicates? Finnair should uphold the value of Platinum better! Can Platinum be distinguished better?
- Probably the best part about the AY+ programme is that any Y fares are eligible for an upgrade with points, and there's no copay needed. Sure, the longhaul upgrades require a whole lot of points and the days of the 35k NA upgrades are long gone, but it's still a very good benefit.
- Points should be non-expiring, like for instance BA miles that don't expire even for Blue members
- Events and special offers for higher tier members
Last edited by Purjelentaja; Mar 17, 2016 at 4:57 am
Mar 17, 2016, 4:49 am
#35
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far: Booking & tickets
- Re-introduce the possibily to by affordable one way tickets. The current policy means simply that many pax have to use other carriers - as well as a lot of non shows for AY!
- Offer affordable J class tickets also within Europe. Presently next to nobody buy intra-European J class tickets to these ridiculous prices. Low price restricted business class tickets within Europe would be an interesting addition.
- Japan joint venture: In economy, we can't book the fares we want. In business, Finnair just promotes BA (there is a huge premium to be paid to route on Finnair). Sometimes we can't even buy the tickets we need, because Japan fares can't be combined with other AY fares.
- Combining Y & J fares is not possible on Finnair web
- Chat useless, usually all agents busy and if you get hold on one, you end up getting a person that is not of any help
- Offer affordable J class tickets also within Europe. Presently next to nobody buy intra-European J class tickets to these ridiculous prices. Low price restricted business class tickets within Europe would be an interesting addition.
- Japan joint venture: In economy, we can't book the fares we want. In business, Finnair just promotes BA (there is a huge premium to be paid to route on Finnair). Sometimes we can't even buy the tickets we need, because Japan fares can't be combined with other AY fares.
- Combining Y & J fares is not possible on Finnair web
- Chat useless, usually all agents busy and if you get hold on one, you end up getting a person that is not of any help
Last edited by Purjelentaja; Mar 17, 2016 at 5:28 am
Mar 17, 2016, 4:50 am
#36
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far: Airport
- Priority security
o Fast track overcrowded during rush hours
o Priority security missing in several airports
- Loungeso Priority security missing in several airports
o Schengen lounge is a zoo at many times of the day.
o Schengen lounge is ridiculously crowded these days especially after they started taking in paying guests and 3rd party cards... That lounge is the weak link. As a OWE I do not see a premium there. Weak service weak offerings!
o Schengen area lounge food offering is at certain times of the day atrocoius. The food is also very monotonous for frequent visitors. The quality of food should be better. It’s very cheap now and reminds food that’s served in Finnish public schools
o Lounge congestion - It is not just about crowding, but also about resources (showers occupied, toilets dirty, machines broken) Are there any good news in this area? (I think we all understand the strategic importance for Finnair to offer lounge for silvers) Can Finnair contract any more lounges at HEL?
o There should be a separated area for Platinum and Oneworld Emerald customers in Schengen lounge, too. The lounge is too crowded now.
o The Premium lounge could indeed be a OW First class lounge with offerings also on F class lounge level.
o Champagne should be served in all Finnair lounges, not that cheap prosecco – that isn’t served in business class either, so why we should accept it in lounges?
- Boardingo Schengen lounge is ridiculously crowded these days especially after they started taking in paying guests and 3rd party cards... That lounge is the weak link. As a OWE I do not see a premium there. Weak service weak offerings!
o Schengen area lounge food offering is at certain times of the day atrocoius. The food is also very monotonous for frequent visitors. The quality of food should be better. It’s very cheap now and reminds food that’s served in Finnish public schools
o Lounge congestion - It is not just about crowding, but also about resources (showers occupied, toilets dirty, machines broken) Are there any good news in this area? (I think we all understand the strategic importance for Finnair to offer lounge for silvers) Can Finnair contract any more lounges at HEL?
o There should be a separated area for Platinum and Oneworld Emerald customers in Schengen lounge, too. The lounge is too crowded now.
o The Premium lounge could indeed be a OW First class lounge with offerings also on F class lounge level.
o Champagne should be served in all Finnair lounges, not that cheap prosecco – that isn’t served in business class either, so why we should accept it in lounges?
o There should be own lanes for priority pax (business class, Platinum, Gold, OWE, OWS), for Economy comfort pax and Silver/OWR, and then for Economy pax to avoid a boarding chaos. Cathay Pacific is doing this vey well.
o Can boarding groups be improved? They are very seldom even announced in Helsinki airport Schengen side. For non-schengen departures, they are announced, but it seems half of the passengers are in group 1.
o Maybe improve equipment at gates? Train staff in "crowd control"? Adjustments to who is in which group?
o Op-ups to business class seem to be random. If there will be op-ups, it should always start from top-tier members, not ID-travellers or any random passengers
o Can boarding groups be improved? They are very seldom even announced in Helsinki airport Schengen side. For non-schengen departures, they are announced, but it seems half of the passengers are in group 1.
o Maybe improve equipment at gates? Train staff in "crowd control"? Adjustments to who is in which group?
o Op-ups to business class seem to be random. If there will be op-ups, it should always start from top-tier members, not ID-travellers or any random passengers
Last edited by Purjelentaja; Mar 17, 2016 at 5:25 am
Mar 17, 2016, 4:52 am
#37
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far: Onboard
- Longhaul J concepts
- Seat blocking sometimes works, sometimes not. Make the service consistent!
- Cost-savings of service have led to a sub-par product (long-haul holiday destinations C class, intra-European C class in Embraers with no seat blocking, even the short-haul offerings in Y class are worse than BA have)
o Right now there are three of them: regular business class, business light on some flights and midnight menu on some flights. Some of the differences are advertised, some not. If the concepts are kept as they are, then they should be openly advertised. There's a lengthy discussion here on FT about "BusinessLight" and I think that the thing bothering us most is not the reduced concept as such, but the fact that only once we're on board do we find out about the reduced service, which them comes as a big disappointment. So either the reduction should be openly advertised or all longhaul J flights should have the same concept.
o Several business class service levels are confusing and reduced service on certain flights deteriorate the brand. If it is business class, it should be full business class service!
o CEO Pekka Vauramo told in newspaper interview that target is best business class product in Europe and that should really be taken seriously and we should see some changes!
- Shorthaul business classo Several business class service levels are confusing and reduced service on certain flights deteriorate the brand. If it is business class, it should be full business class service!
o CEO Pekka Vauramo told in newspaper interview that target is best business class product in Europe and that should really be taken seriously and we should see some changes!
o That must be improved, especially on SH flights and desserts. If Finnair wants to be a Finnish airline, why not to serve handmade Fazer pralines, for example, instead of those horrible kisels and cheap cakes that anyone can buy in airport’s grocery store before flight for less than 2 euros?
o If Finnair wants to be a nordic airline, why it’s serving Czech or Hungarian beef stew in beer sauce and spätzle for main course? I would love to see more fresh fish from our lakes and tasty game from our forests, vegetables from farmers, berries and mushrooms. Finnair is currently talking about those in their menu cards but serving cheap catch of the crogery stores.
- Platinum recognition onboard: It’s inconsistent. Sometimes one gets personal welcome, sometimes not. Sometimes one gets complimentary newspaper, sometimes not. Sometimes one gets free drinks, sometimes not. Please make the service consistent. Make it clear to crew.o If Finnair wants to be a nordic airline, why it’s serving Czech or Hungarian beef stew in beer sauce and spätzle for main course? I would love to see more fresh fish from our lakes and tasty game from our forests, vegetables from farmers, berries and mushrooms. Finnair is currently talking about those in their menu cards but serving cheap catch of the crogery stores.
- Seat blocking sometimes works, sometimes not. Make the service consistent!
- Cost-savings of service have led to a sub-par product (long-haul holiday destinations C class, intra-European C class in Embraers with no seat blocking, even the short-haul offerings in Y class are worse than BA have)
Last edited by Purjelentaja; Mar 17, 2016 at 5:22 am
Mar 17, 2016, 4:53 am
#38
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far: A350
- The business class seats are considered huge disappointment:
o far too cramped
o too little storage space
o tv screen not tilting
o table cannot be moved forward-backward
o divider between center seats should be removable to enable conversation if travelling with someone
o many consider them much worse than Vantage seats on A330/A340
- If possible, it would be interesting to hear about the thinking that went into the cabin designs, if design is locked down for all 19 aircraft or is Finnair considering making alterations to later deliveries? Are there some issues well known to Finnair, perhaps already looking into solutions? As flyers we certainly see some issues in the cabin and it would be reassuring just knowing if we are seeing eye-to-eye on those.
o too little storage space
o tv screen not tilting
o table cannot be moved forward-backward
o divider between center seats should be removable to enable conversation if travelling with someone
o many consider them much worse than Vantage seats on A330/A340
Mar 17, 2016, 4:53 am
#39
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Summary of ideas for discussion this far: Others
Listen to customers
- When Finnair next time is planning new business and economy class meals, choosing next generation seats etc., invite customers to test and try and let them tell their feedback before making the final decision.
Net pages
- Unclear, very difficult to find information needed after menus disappeared from top row
- Manage My Booking doesn’t display business class menus anymore
Other issues
- EU 241/2004 claims: If AY cancels a flight and pax are entitled to EU compensation, they shouldn't have to fight for it. Pax sends email to CR, AY reviews and pays when the case is clear. Right now, AY seems to treat even their Plats in a very condescending manner, offering nothing or next to nothing in cases that are clear as crystal. This humiliates the pax and gives a dishonest image of the airline.
- When Finnair next time is planning new business and economy class meals, choosing next generation seats etc., invite customers to test and try and let them tell their feedback before making the final decision.
Net pages
- Unclear, very difficult to find information needed after menus disappeared from top row
- Manage My Booking doesn’t display business class menus anymore
Other issues
- EU 241/2004 claims: If AY cancels a flight and pax are entitled to EU compensation, they shouldn't have to fight for it. Pax sends email to CR, AY reviews and pays when the case is clear. Right now, AY seems to treat even their Plats in a very condescending manner, offering nothing or next to nothing in cases that are clear as crystal. This humiliates the pax and gives a dishonest image of the airline.
Mar 17, 2016, 5:20 am
#41
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
While I agree it would be very handy to "standby for earlier flight" without extra cost, this suggestion is also inspired by what is done in NA. In Europe I guess this is what flexible tickets are for - sold to business travellers who can't decide what flight they want to take for their return.
If standby for earlier flight is free, they would just buy latest cheapest departure (like the 22:30 departure for 89€) and then show up at the airport for an earlier flight that costs 4 times as much. So I think European airlines won't agree with you that 'it will cost practically nothing'. Even if the flyers wouldn't buy flex tickets in the first place, there will be a revenue drop because the most popular departures are priced higher.
I'd much rather see over all cheaper intra-EU J tickets, with some flexibility included. Much like SK has done with their "plus" (sans the crappy service). That would bring revenue flyers back into the J cabin, thus being good for the airline aswell.
If standby for earlier flight is free, they would just buy latest cheapest departure (like the 22:30 departure for 89€) and then show up at the airport for an earlier flight that costs 4 times as much. So I think European airlines won't agree with you that 'it will cost practically nothing'. Even if the flyers wouldn't buy flex tickets in the first place, there will be a revenue drop because the most popular departures are priced higher.
I'd much rather see over all cheaper intra-EU J tickets, with some flexibility included. Much like SK has done with their "plus" (sans the crappy service). That would bring revenue flyers back into the J cabin, thus being good for the airline aswell.
Mar 17, 2016, 5:25 am
#42
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
If standby for earlier flight is free, they would just buy latest cheapest departure (like the 22:30 departure for 89€) and then show up at the airport for an earlier flight that costs 4 times as much. So I think European airlines won't agree with you that 'it will cost practically nothing'. Even if the flyers wouldn't buy flex tickets in the first place, there will be a revenue drop because the most popular departures are priced higher.
Another approach would be to charge, say, €50 for a confirmed same day change done at the airport, regardless of ticket type (unless of course the ticket allows for changes without a charge).
And the very least would be to routinely allow (and proactively offer, even at outstations) changes when there are delays and pax risk losing their connections.
Mar 17, 2016, 5:32 am
#43
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Yep, you are very much right, it is exactly that, and collected from the issues brought up in these discussions. Some of these are just dreams, but some are serious feedback. For the meeting we should somehow be able to select the serious and realistic issues.
Mar 17, 2016, 5:34 am
#44
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Plat Lumo
Posts: 1,519
If standby for earlier flight is free, they would just buy latest cheapest departure (like the 22:30 departure for 89€) and then show up at the airport for an earlier flight that costs 4 times as much. So I think European airlines won't agree with you that 'it will cost practically nothing'. Even if the flyers wouldn't buy flex tickets in the first place, there will be a revenue drop because the most popular departures are priced higher.
Mar 17, 2016, 5:50 am
#45
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
So while it is good to have a list, this can't really be a topic itself. As for the (newly re-designed) AY+ program, I guess we would like to hear AY's reasoning, the limits and tradeoffs they operate under, the goals they are aiming for, and so on. Once that is better understood, it is possible to give feedback on how we think the program is working and ideas for realistic improvements. They surely have had a wish-list of their own in this process, and prioritised it based on research and knowledge of many parameters.
IMO, the purpose of the subject list is to prepare general discussion of different areas. There might be chances of going into some specifics, but that is a value-add.