longhorn11

Is it possible to get further clarification on this issue? Talkboard, etc.? I believe this is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

sp4294

I suspect those who read Lucky's blog are not that worried about CC referral clicks, nor do they need to have the basic mechanics of buying discounted PC points explained to them. We all perceive value in different ways...

pcharles

Orrrrrr....... it would have been considered a a REVERSE (hey kettle, this is pot, you're black) borderline conflict of terms and conditions which others who criticize blog businesses on FT have had their posts removed as personal attacks. And so instead, an alternative is a sophomoric post behinds OPs option to respond within the space of original debate.

Astrophsx

Traveling right now so I wanted to respond to Lucky's post on his page as it was directed in part to this thread being created.

- I think that freedom of speech is very important. I understand that there are T&C's of flyertalk. I still think that there is a bit of a gray area when being able to write about people who are not just normal members of FT, but a part of the public eye.

- I gave a personal opinion on how I feel disconnected from the reviews. That I had felt there was a change. To a certain extent there is already a thread for this topic and many of my thoughts should have been more clearly articulated and backed with examples so they came across as constructive criticism (I agree what what you are saying there Ben).

- There could have been better ways than rhetorical questions to express my thoughts. My position was I wondered how a full time students and someone who now evolved into a full time blogger had the time to churn cards and run up spending through non-business related methods. That is why I posted on the forum to get opinions from others. FTG took the stance that yes this was completely possible on card churns.

- Was I trying to stir up controversy? Well I see a lot of posts calling me a hater or being jealous. I guess that would be the same type of negative comment Lucky refers to as non-constructive. If you feel I'm a hater or jealous tell me why so I can at least respond and have an open conversation. Believe it or not, I enjoy thought provoking posts where I can learn.

- The comment about being jaded is only my opinion. I'm in the minority with my feelings, but it my feeling that if you are reviewing music... food.. or travel.. there are probably going to be people out there that do not share your opinion or may just not care for your writing style. I did not do a good job of relating my criticism to the main topic, which is that travel blogging (to me) is in a world of it's on in it's type of journalism. I feel that bloggers are held to different standards.

As Lucky pointed out, he has a financial relationship with some of the companies who provide the products he reviews. So I don't think it is completely out of line for a reader as myself to raise the question if this has any influence on bloggers in general (not just Lucky) in their reviews. Yes, he and other bloggers have disclosed at times when they've been compensated.. but as a reader I feel it is ok to have an open discussion as to if there is any influence on further reviews. Lets face it.. if a famous food critic walks into your restaurant you are going to make sure you go the extra mile for this person knowing your reputation is on the line.

- It makes sense that a bulk of the miles accounted for with Lucky come from credit card churns. I think he's mentioned he can be gone 20 days a month traveling. So that answered cleared up many things for me, because I was asking how a travel blogger would have the time to get involved in other methods to pad their mileage accounts.

- Lucky wrote, "One of my struggles with online reviews is that you usually don’t know enough about the person making them to know whether they’re credible or not." Very insightful comment and I feel that was one of the underlying reasons for posting. I will admit.. I am not as articulate as a full time blogger and often get side tracked. Yes, this is also the internet and I probably didn't form my argument in the same way as I would have if I were to have a discussion with him directly. For that I apologize.

I just was not able to have everything add up in my head with the travel that was going on and relating it to credit card churning. There are certain airline miles and hotel points that are not easy to come by. Even with churning.. there are companies like Amex that have rules where you can only get the bonus after waiting extended periods of time. Things like cash and points with Starwood allow one to extend their points further.. but that isn't always the case with airline miles. That is why I wanted to bring it to a discussion on Flyertalk, there are many people on here that know much more than I do and I'm always learning.

I pointed out what I felt was a change in the product reviews and asked if there could be any connection to how the trips were funded. This was mostly directed at Lucky, but felt the discussion could be applied to other travel bloggers. Am I wrong here to say that these bloggers would not be in business if they did not have us as readers or consumers of the credit card products they push? There is a level of trust between readers and bloggers.

I think I did a poor job of relating my thoughts and opinions of his trip reviews and twitter updates to the main topic. Also, I focused on Lucky more than someone like the points guy due to the frequency of trip reports... but I wanted to apply it to all travel bloggers.

I can't talk about the actions of Mods on here, but I never received any type of direct message stating that I had broken the T&C's. I'm glad the thread remains open as I feel it is related to miles and points. Many use credit card referral links from bloggers and these bloggers are also detailing how they use the points to give people a clear understanding on what is possible with the points and miles. I wanted to know if bloggers were getting compensated so that I know what type of review they are providing. These are high end products and feel one might give a different type of review if they paid out of pocket for the flights, paid with miles, compensated by their company, or had a sponsor like SPG Amex.

I don't enjoy comments saying that I'm attacking another member, but if you are going to say so.. tell me what I did wrong. If a high level politician had an FT account are you still allowed to post about the individual in the OMNI section as long as you aren't referring to their FT handle? I feel that Lucky, Points Guy, FTG, Million Mile Secrets are in the public eye, guessing why the other thread has stayed open?

Yes, I could have contacted Lucky personally. I do acknowledge that would have been a good road to go down, but at the same time.. Lucky did not come on to Flyertalk to join the conversation. At some point, this thread was closed.. and if it had remained closed there would have been no open dialog. Though, I guess that is no different than a newspaper running an editorial on their own form of media.

kziel777

To say that quote was taken out of context would be an understatement. Read the whole post before pulling together different parts to criticize it.

What has that to do with anything I previously said? This garbage is exactly why I come to flyertalk to check out overpriced MR fares I never book.

HikerT

^ Now that was a classy response. I got a chuckle today from some of the blog comments in that regard.

leftpinky

Nothing wrong with what the OP posted, but these lucky-lovers are going a bit overboard. Lucky has a good blog, but doesn't mean a poster can't question/wonder about his relationship with sponsors.

Astrophsx

If he is doing something to create loyal readers, awesome! I think it is great that someone can create a job for themselves doing what they love, especially in this economy and coming right out of college. I'm sure he is savvy enough to keep things going if he is no longer able to maintain enough miles to do that amount of travel for his website. Though, I think the hardest part might be keeping a connection with readers. He pointed out that he travels mostly on award travel (which a lot of us can connect with), it's just a matter of his writing and reviewing keeping readers interested.

meFIRST

As a flyertalk member since 2000, (elite member since 1999 on various programs) I can attest that the scene has gone downhill, fast, ever since these blogs started to emerge circa 2002.

I personally dislike most of the bloggers for this reason.

I blame the bloggers for the devaluation / harder and harder to find inventory on what little seats there are left. And no, I don't mean SkyPesos. I mean all the programs. There was a time when LX F/SQ etc was easier to attain. Now? Fat chance. Its because they all make it easier to obtain and their so called "award consulting services" certainly doesn't help. In fact, it ruins it for everyone else..

I do though have a few blogs/forums I like, because I get actual real value from them. However,most these bloggers show only first class / business class pÖrn pics and provide little to no value, other than a credit card referral link at the bottom/side and google nonsense links. Talk about a turn off......

Are there any FT purists left? It seems as though everyone and their mother has a mileage blog these days.

oliver2002

I'm pretty certain there are FT purists out there, but as FT grows (and google shows FT in pretty much any search on any travel related topic), the simple demographics mean that the proportion of 'purists' is not as evident.

A good writer (blogger, journo, TReporter etc) needs to spice up the copy, other wise people don't read it. Both lucky9876coins and eightblack, (just to take two examples) use different methods to inject drama into the show: the former comments why the Dom was not chilled enough, the nuts too cold or the footwell of a throne too small, the latter adds some armwaving by airline staff, an anecdote from the family etc. Its a skill, and not everyone has it, often because it means you have to share some privacy with the general public, be it family stuff, the occasional limb of a travelling partner in a F seat photo etc etc. And of course the question: where does it all come from.

I just completed a eventful trip to India which had all the armwaving drama for a nice TR, but decided against writing a TR since I don't have the time or energy to write it. Bits and pieces will end up in threads discussing specific aspects of the travel (eg in LH new C product, in AI 787 thread etc) so as to help FTers who are researching into the topic. Which is also a gripe I have against blogs: they are just snapshots of one trip that reflect the opinion of one blogger with no serious discussion. And no, I don't consider the comments section of a blog to be an unbiased discussion.

BTW, there are a good bunch of blogs out there that deal with the actual travel experience at the destination including the flight. Not just the C/F cabin and the hotel detail. For example it saddens me that so many are flying to RGN and just making a turn in the jetway Yes, yes, I know a FT purist does a turn...

JSteele

TPG is one of many outlets I write for, I am also a member of the Society of American Travel writers, I have appeared in print, etc. I also attend functions for travel writers, both local and out of town. I have spoken with dozens of travel writers with decades of experience. The last thing one would do after a "hosted" trip is to slam the host.

Astrophsx

I guess the focus of topic on my part should have been asking the question are bloggers getting compensated? Also, I should have asked if the fact that they receive compensation from hotels and airlines does it change how you view the review. That is to say... if United gave them money for work earlier in the year or a free flight.. do you still feel you are reading an unbiased review even though the particular trip they may be on was either funded by miles/points or their own cash.

I think many have pointed out that even if one travels very often credit card churning would allow for that amount of award travel. So I think that cleared up a lot for me. In the end, I think bloggers (as lucky pointed out) are aware that at times their credibility could be ask risk if they have partnerships. That there might be a conflict of interest. I think one could also argue that saying the reason I took the partnership was something for you guys... well giving away free things given to you by a company is a win for the company (word of mouth on a popular blog), win for the readers, but also a win for the blogger who maintains loyalty with the readers which click on the ads and sign up for credit cards. So ultimately it is up to the reader to decide if what they are getting is an unbiased review.

@oliver2002 I get what you are saying about spicing it up. The champagne on the ground scenario, maybe that can be looked at as just some tidbit of information and shouldn't really be scrutinized for more. I will also agree that there is clearly a talent for writing.. these aren't stale reviews... although for the most part in the past year I don't connect with the reviews as I once did and like someone else pointed out I'm there for the eye candy of what is being offered in First.

I've read a lot of negative things written about me in his comment section. Not really much of a forum for a discussion over there, if they have something negative to say about what I posted on a different website they should post it here. I'll post what I have to say off topic in the other thread. Otherwise I feel my questions have been answered.

garykung

+1 I had the honor to talk to lucky9876coins face to face. And believe me - he may be one of the nicest 1K that I have ever seen (before he switched to the dAArkside), if he remembered me.

How he paid for the trip is none of our business as none of us directly paid him to do this and that. Even you paid for his service before, he made his money honestly. Referral credit (or bonus) for credit card? You have the right not to use that link at all. AFAIK - even anyone think he is living in a dream world, he is living in his own dream world, not yours.

I agreed (as a continued matter) that Boarding Area has became a place talking about credit cards rather than FT stuffs, which I have significantly decrease my visits from daily to biweekly. But you do have a choice not to comment and/or not to read.

We all have our differences. Let's respect each other.

FWIW - he has the right to complain the champagne served.

(BTW - given the credit card companies notice credit card churning or App-O-Rama, credit card companies are in fact more proactive in catching this kind of practice.)

Internet is what kills deals, not bloggers.

I used MR deals as an example. Do you truly believe that airlines don't know about their MR deal? For those programs that have official representatives present at FT, all the posts regarding them are closely monitored. It is extremely rare for a mistake fare to show up.

Then why I said internet kills deal? Simple - after it is posted at FT, some lurkers may cross post at SD or FW. So one knows, everybody knows. News simply travels fast.

There is no way to compare the internet traffic between bloggers and forums like SD/FW as forums are way massive.

ferrari_fan

I had a lot of acerbic thoughts that I wanted to post following your response. I don't want to since you are a long time member and I know I will regret it later. I am also out of this thread and these blog related topics in general.

Your response to my post is very disappointing. I will leave it at that.

kokonutz

Time for a 'Back in MY day...' rant!

Oh man, those were the days, weren't they? People earned miles by actually flying (seem quaint doesn't it!?), and status actually meant something. Then once in a while there was a boondoggle and we all got excited that KLM or LatinPass could be so crazy generous.

Those days are long gone, of course. My wife (who I met via FlyerTalk) and I were just saying last night that this game isn't even really about frequent flying any more. It is mostly about churning credit cards to get a Cathay Suite or whatever. And of course as the churners churn and 'miles' pile up there is bound to be massive inflation on awards and devaluation of miles. Heck, as we see in this thread, there are PROFESSIONAL churners now whose 'real' job (or lucrative side-job) is squeezing miles from every card and manufactured spend and making money telling other people how to spend their miles. That's crazy innovative, wicked smart but also indicative of a bubble. The other sure sign of the bubble wall getting thin is the proliferation of bloggers. Remember how many house-flipper bloggers, shows and infomercials there were just before the housing bubble popped!? And so too the miles bubble is going to inevitably pop. Credit card companies will get (are already getting, really) wise to folks who are churning and start denying cards to churners and programs will continue to cut award availability and devalue those miles, just like the airlines got wise to mileage runners and went to a spend-based top tier (and, i predict, eventually spend-based all tiers).

It's easy to get upset that mileage runners ruined elite status. It's easy to get upset that churn bloggers and their disciples are ruining the value of miles.

But it's a bubble economy and it's not going to stop just because it is upsetting and setting up the ultimate destruction of points and miles programs as we know them. Things change. Paradigms shift. The thing to do is play the game, churn the cards as fast as you can before the bubble pops. And when it does pop, don't be left holding millions of worthless miles.

I'm pretty lucky in that I am at a place in life where I can buy business class fares for both work and leisure. So I look forward to what I predict will be the 'new model' of miles after the current bubble bursts where spend counts more than distance both for earning status and getting award travel.

But in the meantime, I have an AA and a UA card that I need to manufacture some spend on, so I am going to stop ranting and go blow into the bubble! ^