eightblack

I am going to preface this post with the removal of my Moderator hat. And simply post as an EK customer. A relatively new one. This is my second year as Gold. I think I've flown around 350,000 tier miles in 24-months. Or thereabouts.

I've watched the temperature of the EK board rise dramatically over the past few weeks. Basically around the Flex versus Saver fare issue. And now the latest development re lounge access for Golds.

I'll share with you my own views on both subjects in a minute. But I want to address something else first if that's ok.

My personal opinion is that many of the recent threads and posts are developing into an EK bashing session. Which doesn't really help the wider EK community, whether old or new members.

Sure, you might feel better wandering into an IBB and letting it rip, but how constructive is it really?

I remember when I started flying QF. A lot. I joined the program way back in 1996 and achieved and then maintained Platinum for probably 10-years straight. For 3-consecutive years, I flew RTW in F at least once every 6-8 weeks. There wasn't much to complain about. But in all that time, when I was flying domestically in Y, not one op-up. And maybe 2-3 op-ups in my entire QF life.

But then I changed jobs and my economic and geographical environment changed. I went from working in big corporate to being self-employed. Qantas no longer became the obvious choice. They starting cutting corners in the delivery of their hard and soft product (they were still ok) but others were better. It was sort of like a marriage or relationship which got old. And dull. And boring. So I left. Just stopped flying them. I'd achieved Gold status for Life so I was set with premium check-in, baggage allowances and up until recently, anytime lounge access. I was ok with it. I still fly them domestically in Australia - but they would be my last choice for anything international. They're simply not competitive price wise.

I didn't write to them. And they didn't write to me. Or call. And I don't think I knew about FT back then.

Which brings me back to EK.

Do I like the changes which are underway? Of course not. As some of you know, 90% of my travel is in Y. And I tend to shuttle between SIN and MEL heavily. But being Gold on this airline sure beats everything else I've experienced (including a 4-year stint as a PPS on SQ, Platinum on QF as I said above and a 1K-MM on UA).

And while the prices remain steady and within my limit, EK will be my choice of carrier between the 2 cities I fly most. Even if a client is picking up the tab, I'm still going to use them as I do try and maintain all my loyalty to EK and *A. I just don't see the sense in flying on multiple airlines - especially within Asia.

I also believe that EK have built up a pretty good bank of credits with me as far as op-ups are concerned. The last 2 flights out of MEL were oversold. So op-up heaven for Golds. If the flight is oversold out of SIN, I pretty much well know that I'm turning left - not right.

Do I work the system? Yes, of course. Wouldn't you if you could? I look for busy flights if my schedule is flexible. I have an unhealthy addiction to ExpertFlyer and the EK seat map. I call the local EK office and enquire about loads.

I made a point of getting to know the local EK staff. I'd hardly consider myself a premium customer. I'm not in J every week shuttling between SIN and DXB (of which there are plenty of people). I know I'm fortunate to live in a port which allows that personal interraction to occur. If I was based in DXB, then it would be another matter.

The Saver versus Flex fare issue is hurting EK in terms of leaving money on the table and annoying a customer base. It is nothing more than a technology limitation. And one which is inexcusable given the resources at EK's disposal. I think its unfair to comment any further beyond this. Is it incompetence? How would I know. Is it a silly thing which should have been fixed long ago? Of course, but you and I aren't privvy to the internal machinations going at DXB.

mrtdxb (one of our Ambassadors) recently posted that he priced EK to LHR and they were twice the cost of BA. So he booked with BA. He voted with his feet. His arguments were spot on.

Which is what I'm urging those folks who are unhappy with EK to do.

I'm not trying to be a suck. Or a vigilante brand ambassador for EK. They couldn't care less anymore about me versus any other Gold member. But I fail to see the point in getting so worked up about the recent events, where the conversation turns toxic.

I'm as frustrated as everyone on here that EK haven't as yet waded into the FT pond and engaged in a conversation with us. We have tried - believe me. If ever there was a time that the airline should embrace social media, it would be now. The Google index is permanent.

I'm even flying to DXB next month in an attempt to meet with the Skywards and EK folks to sort out the planning for the Dubai Do. And Ung1 is coming with me.

Nothing would please me more than to have their involvement. Like some of our other airline brethren. But they haven't as yet - and thats their issue. Not mine.

I'm not defending EK. They have their reasons for the changes - some of which I can "see". In terms of the fact that I acknowledge that something had to be done about the DXB lounge in T3. But there were surely better ways to effect this change (ie like consulting your best customers first). And I'm sorry, a compensated focus group is not market research.

I truly understand that we are all individuals and we are all entitled to our opinions. That's what makes life (and FT) all the more interesting. As far as I'm concerned, EK hasn't reached its limit with me (yet). If I want to book a flex fare between SIN-MEL, I don't even use the website anymore. I either use a travel agent or have the EK Singapore office take care of it.

Prices are still ok. And lounge access hasn't become an issue - because most of the time, I'm flying solo. But I still don't like the fact that they removed the privilege. And if they remove it altogether, then I will end my relationship with them. Silently.

Has the gloss been removed a little bit? You bet. EK are victims of perhaps their staggering growth. But thats no excuse. They need to suck it up, employ more (or better resources) and recalibrate Skywards sooner rather than later. The program has to have a 4th tier (or an add-on to Gold like BA's program) ie GGL. And the qualification thresholds have to be lifted.

But that's just my opinion. Without my Mod hat on.

abhilife2001

Well written 8B ^

As you mentioned that you and ung1 are planning to meet EK& Skywards folks next month, will it be a good idea to take with you a letter with issues and suggestions ..
Something like this ?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/airli...-petition.html

roadrunner21

redacted redacted

CalFlyer

Eightblack's post is well written, but I don't get his point: He flies economy and is regularly upgraded. The changes to the Skywards program don't really affect him. And he complains that many posters are bitter about EK, and he advises them to just vote with their feet.

This Board is populated by people who do NOT want to just vote with their feet, but want to change things that go wrong around them. Otherwise they would not bother posting. Three years ago, EK had a very competitive FF program. It has degenerated to industry average (at best!). Meanwhile, I only fly EK because they are the most convenient connection on some of my routes. But I do not give them my premium travel anymore. I would love to see EK recognize me as a great customer (who I am, and who I could be even more). But they don't, because any random long-distance traveler is Gold as well. Fourth tier calling.

So I am perfectly ok with posters turning threads about minor issues (like guest access for Golds in economy � pretty much a non-issue for most FTers) into a whining ground. It just shows how much EK's treatment of their (mostly) frequent flying FTers has degenerated.

rathin100

I think its essential for us to get a global perspective on whats happening with EK from different customer vantages.
I feel that this has been happening in a scattered way, but is a valuable conversation irrespective of EK managements 'lack of caring and involvement.
I think this discussion is wlecome and should continue, focused into this thread, if EightBlack agrees.

There are several important issues which have been raised over the past year by OPers including myself. I think it is important that these continue to be raised, not for EK management, but to check among ourselves as Ek stakeholderswhich phenomena are outliers to our location or individual circumstances and which are generic to EK

For instance, I have learnt that

(1) My negative experiences experience ex-GRU in 2011:
of suddenly expensive J fares, of near-zero benefits for regular J flyers with gold status of zero op or comp ups upgrades from J to F after 17 transcon sectors

are not factors specific to me or to the station I fly out of but quite generalised.

(2)I have also learnt compared to others experiences that the South American Ek senior management is very poor on customer service compared to others. not generalised

(3) I have ascertained that product inconsistency is a hallmark of EK across the network

(4) I now know that my impression of EK Cabin Crew and ground staff (not management) as being among the most ""intelligent"" (in a management science sense) in the world is share by most EK FFs

I recently discern that there is a huge collective concern at a decline in EK product quality togerther with rumours of more to come that would significantly affect even Y booking Golds whio till recently had a reasonably good deal from EK with op-ups and lounge access.

This is all valuable for me from FT

And yes as a result I have voted with my feet. No EK for me until further notice.

But, as a consequence of (a) being part of a community who share similar concerns wirth contemporary EK and are voting as I am and (b) a desire to see if EK does up-end and improve so I can get back to my nice ICE and multilingual intelligent cabin crew.

I continue to actively post on the EK board

Thats my few bits. Thanks, Simon for bringing this improtant issue to the fore so nicely.

DXBPlat

I think it's a good post from EB, I'm a bit ho-hum on the latest posts on this board. Let's just say that my view is that too many people simply think they're more important than they really are. It includes many people but particularly those who travel on a company's account but insist they should be a 4th tier as, you know, they are like superimportant and stuff. Yah. (but they travel economy or points on their own travel budget). Also the "I travel twice a year long-haul on Emirates..." crowd who want full benefits for Gold/ business passengers and are outraged they can't take their extended family in to the lounge or get guaranteed free upgrades on their infrequent trips.

You know what? Nobody cares. You don't want to travel? The plane will still go. The plane will still be full.

Yes I don't like many of the recent changes in EK and am suspicious of where it is going. Yes there are better offers out there if you want to shop around for the one or two flights a year you take. But having had status with other airlines previously (BA, Star Alliance), I think I'm much better off - particularly as a Dubai resident who travels frequently - by giving my business to Emirates. I don't expect upgrades, but am pleasantly surprised when it happens (I never had any free BA upgrades in 4 years of status, EK is miles better), I love the lounge network and I have never had problems upgrading with miles or redeeming flights when I want. It's not for everyone, but then again I don't know any customer loyalty program in the world that is.

Eightblack's post highlights that we all need to make the right choice for ourselves. He's clearly an experienced traveller, but as he's a mod people expect him to make change happen for them. For me, if you can live with the flaws of Emirates/ Skywards then enjoy it. If not, well what are you doing here? Take whatever your net spend is per annum on airlines and divide it by the annual revenue of Emirates, then take that utterly miniscule percentage and then tell me you're an important customer and Emirates couldn't live without you. If you don't like it, then go, just don't whinge to all of us that you're unfairly treated. As above, there may be better programs to suit your needs, go and enjoy them and leave us in peace.

rathin100

Your views are no doubt interesting In particular I was struck by your profound, original and insightful comment: ""We all need to make the right choice for ourselves"" I will reflect on it for many days


Two questions, child: why do you refer to things as if you were speaking to an individual on behalf of a multitude? ( ""Nobody cares"" ""leave us in peace"")??

And why do you think people expect Eightblack to make changes in anything Ek is doing? I havent got that impression from the posts Ive been reading?

CommittedLurker

We should all follow this advice. Then there will be no need for FT at all. We all can decide whether we want to fly with EK or not. Period. No need to discuss, debate, or seek others' perspectives.

sfozrhfco

My frustrations with EK and Skywards are not that the problems exist but that nothing is being done about them. The Saver vs. Flex issue is case in point. They invite people to participate in the Emirates Hub to give feedback which is apparently given to EK management. Even if they have IT limitations which seems a stretch, they could even do a simpler approach in the interim and have a tab--"Want full miles?/pay XXX amount extra for your flight to receive full tier miles." The fact is they are banking on the fact that the vast majority of people will unwittingly purchase a saver fare and therefore the number of silvers and gold will go down due to passenger and employee ignorance of the system. I hate when companies act in this way. If you want people to pay a premium for something, then at least enable them to purchase the product and not make the customer go through hoops to get it.

It is the same with the business program they offer. It was rolled out in a very amateur way. It is still not possible to guarantee flex tickets are purchased. One has to book through the internet to get credit for the company and then pay the change fees to "upgrade" to a flex fare if you end up with a saver time online. Companies want simple and easy while EK has made it convoluted and complicated to the point that their own employees don't even know how to figure out the rules.

Dubai has been resting on its laurels as the "rapidly expanding airport hub" but from my perspective, Dubai's best days are behind it. The financial crisis put it under the control of more conservative Abu Dhabi and EK will not continue to grow exponentially if the company does not up its game. Having just spent half the day trying to get through to QR to book a vegetarian meal for an employee, I can see that EK's competition at this point may be weaker than they are on the web/phone customer service front. European airlines are often not much better. That will not be the case forever--particularly as EK's standards keep going down.

I chose EK because they did provide a superior product at a reasonable price. The prices are going up and the quality is going down. I did care and was invited to give them my feedback about how to improve. Nothing has changed and frankly, I don't think EK cares much about their passengers any more--if they ever did. Am I excited about some other airline at this point? To be honest, no--but I will not automatically book employees on EK any more, nor will I encourage people to choose EK. I will book our employees on the airline that makes the most sense for the routing in question. Lately, that has meant that nobody has gone on EK.

Will it make a difference, who knows...but any company that wants to expand rapidly and still make money that is not a complete monopoly must retain and attract its fare paying customers. We will see how things turn out for EK if they keep turning people away through their inconsistent product, customer service, and lack of attention to passenger needs.

kumrabai

Thanks Eightblack for considered email. And thanks for everything you do on FT, and for trying to talk to Emirates.

You're absolutely right about the muddle-headed approach on Flex vs Saver - it does seem like a technology problem.

I would reinforce further though the issue of fares. I make fare purchasing decisions for my company, and normally I will allow the use of Emirates if it is a few % more expensive. But they are risking a lot by allowing such a large price gap to open up between them and the competition, which btw are very good (Qatar and Etihad). For example, to go MLE-JFK costs at least USD 1000 more in Emirates J than Qatar J. Impossible to justify really, which means my brain is going to tell me to do something my heart doesn't want to do (always a bad thing for a top tier airline!)...

My 10c.

DXBPlat

I'm disappointed. I pull out the fishing rod and all I catch is a tiddler. Ah well, better than nothing.

Firstly, thank you for calling me a child as a) it establishes you as someone who thinks they are superior, allowing me to tailor this reponse to push some buttons, and b) it makes it open season.

Secondly, thank you for cheering my day up with the "EK stakeholder" phrase in your original post, particularly as you emboldened it. Ha ha ha ha, brilliant. You admit you're an ex-customer, yet you still feel the sense of entitelment that your voice should be heard. You're a stakeholder now, how enriching for you! I'm but a child stakeholder but one day I hope to become a fully fledged grown up one.

Now, allow me to address some of your "concerns". I'll refer you to my first post which gives a lot of context, but in general I would say there is little EK should even think about doing to address your concerns. I'll cover some of my favourites in the hope that it focuses discussion on these boards on real issues, not just personal preferences and prejudices.

1) "Suddenly expensive J fares" - Wow. You mean the price goes up if you wait longer? I won't bore you with the pricing algorithms and what they contain but let's just say that "has Mr Rathin100 booked a seat yet?" is not going to be a key input

2) "near-zero benefits for regular J flyers with gold status of zero op or comp ups upgrades from J to F after 17 transcon sectors" - I used to travel to work on the train first class. Every day, year after year. They never did give me a carriage all to myself, I really don't understand it. Oh, yes I do, it's called "getting what you pay for", if you want to fly F then buy a ticket or use miles

3) "I have also learnt compared to others experiences that the South American Ek senior management is very poor on customer service" - Is this even an issue? How many people feel the need to contact senior management when they're buying a seat on a plane? The self important ones, that's who.

4) "I have ascertained that product inconsistency is a hallmark of EK across the network" - It's not. It's really not. I've flown all over the world with them, it's the same seat, the same lounge, the same flight announcements and the same food. You had a go at me for "lacking insight", this is the most bland statement I've ever seen on here, once again you've been messing about with your theasaurus and not actually making any sense.

I could go on but I've lost the will to live. But to summarise:

1) You don't like Emirates

2) You don't fly them any more

3) Nobody (note use of bold ) cares

NEXT!

rathin100

Liked your post as I did exactly the same as you ...my results:

Yes nobody has gone on EK... but nobody except me has gone on QR /SQ either. They have elected to use BA and AF even though the routings are slightly longer and I am suddenly saddled with long weekend type one day leave requests for the summer :-) I find stopovers in Europe happening .. when I glance through itineraries I find requests to get corporate.fares for wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends.. ( we do this liberally on request and its a major perk of our organisation)

Now this is one unrecognised benefit of having a relationship with an airline with its transit hub in a deadzone!

rathin100

Eightblack (and others), this is a very puzzling point We know that EK has been thinking about this for some time now and as the occsasional flurry of 4th tier posts and threads suggests this is of great interest to HVCs as well But they have always decided not to do it. THere must be a logic to this decision, and it would be interesting to know or even speculate what it might be. I cannot think of any..others?

abhilife2001

IMO, EK had two options :-

1. Let Gold remain the way it was and bring another higher tier for super elite.
This way the golds dont get pissed off and those who fly really frequently or in higher classes get rewarded with something more exclusive.

2. Make it tougher to gold itself and ineffect make it exclusive.. This they are doing by making most fares saver etc which will make it needing double the flights in most cases.
IME, as most frequent travellers travel for work, many of them dont want to pay more ( sometimes like 200 - 300 USD) for only more miles from their own pockets ( I would not ! )..But this is resulting in lot of heart burn as we all know..

CommittedLurker

This would be fine with me, if they actually added some value to Gold status:

a. Increased availability for saver awards (still virtually none)
b. Increased advance upgrade availability - right now, it's a gamble with poor odds.
c. Upgrade Cert's like LH/UA offer.
d. Lounge Access (which has been reduced, not increased)

Right now, the EK Skywards program does not encourage me to travel with any loyalty in premium classes. Aside from bonus miles (on a lower mileage saver ticket !), there is nothing.

It's all a one way street with EK at the moment.