I don't get it. Why all the the hype about Kobe/Wagyu beef?
Jun 27, 2010, 1:01 pm
#31
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Jun 27, 2010, 7:28 pm
#32
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Originally Posted by CAGuyInNY
The waiter also mentioned that most Americans who have had both at their
restaurant prefer the American Kobe to the Japanese, as it has more flavour.
restaurant prefer the American Kobe to the Japanese, as it has more flavour.
Originally Posted by CAGuyInNY
The American Kobe also has less of a price premium than the Japanese.
Jun 27, 2010, 10:32 pm
#33
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As a steak lover who has probably consumed hundreds of pounds of beef, good Wagyu and Kobe are completely different than "normal," cheaper steaks. I can't fathom how they can even be compared. If anything, I suspect the restaurant either misprepared the beef or it simply wasn't labeled properly as the meats look completely different.
Great Wagyu is truly a decadent, mouth watering experience. Consistent marbling throughout the cut will result in a (fattier), juicier, and tastier dish. in addition to the fat content, the actual meat is more tender due to the daily beer drinking and massaging of the cows.
I agree that the Kobe burgers are probably more hype than anything as once the meat is ground and fat is added they can look similar. However, if you add a piece of fois gras on top of any burger, you've got a real winner.
Also, the japanese ban on beef applies to American beef going to Japan, not Japanese beef entering the US to my understanding as one of my local favorite restaurants, Cut at the Las Vegas Palazzo, serves True Japanese 100% Wagyu Beef from Saga Prefecture, Kyushu, Japan.
To try Wagyu, I suggest Shibuya at the MGM or Cut at the Palazzo as both serve some amazing beef. The Angus bone in rib eye at the Venetian's Delmonico's is a fine example of tasty American beef.
Great Wagyu is truly a decadent, mouth watering experience. Consistent marbling throughout the cut will result in a (fattier), juicier, and tastier dish. in addition to the fat content, the actual meat is more tender due to the daily beer drinking and massaging of the cows.
I agree that the Kobe burgers are probably more hype than anything as once the meat is ground and fat is added they can look similar. However, if you add a piece of fois gras on top of any burger, you've got a real winner.
Also, the japanese ban on beef applies to American beef going to Japan, not Japanese beef entering the US to my understanding as one of my local favorite restaurants, Cut at the Las Vegas Palazzo, serves True Japanese 100% Wagyu Beef from Saga Prefecture, Kyushu, Japan.
To try Wagyu, I suggest Shibuya at the MGM or Cut at the Palazzo as both serve some amazing beef. The Angus bone in rib eye at the Venetian's Delmonico's is a fine example of tasty American beef.
Earlier this year I was at Meat Market, in Miami, with a friend and we ordered an American Kobe raised in Texas. The server, who I have to say was outstanding, advised us to order the steak medium, rather than the medium-rare we usually get, as the extra cooking fully breaks down the marbling in the beef. A truly high-quality Kobe shouldn't have any significant visible fat when it's served, unless there happens to be some on the outer edge.
That's the way ours came, and it was the best steak I've ever had...and back in my expense-account days I went to every high-end steak house in Manhattan. Rich, intense beef flavour, tender but not to the point where it simply dissolves...just decadent.
The waiter also mentioned that most Americans who have had both at their restaurant prefer the American Kobe to the Japanese, as it has more flavour. The American Kobe also has less of a price premium than the Japanese.
That's the way ours came, and it was the best steak I've ever had...and back in my expense-account days I went to every high-end steak house in Manhattan. Rich, intense beef flavour, tender but not to the point where it simply dissolves...just decadent.
The waiter also mentioned that most Americans who have had both at their restaurant prefer the American Kobe to the Japanese, as it has more flavour. The American Kobe also has less of a price premium than the Japanese.
Great advice. Maybe I'll have to give it another try (if I can afford it). I'll order it medium and see how it goes.
Jun 28, 2010, 6:48 am
#34
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[QUOTE=CAGuyInNY;14200746
The waiter also mentioned that most Americans who have had both at their restaurant prefer the American Kobe to the Japanese, as it has more flavour. The American Kobe also has less of a price premium than the Japanese.[/QUOTE]
in usa, to be called wagyu and approved usa waygu association, the cow has to be 50% waygu(breed). in japan has to be 100% waygu breed. i do not thing any 100% waygu is being harvested in usa. new zealand has some 100% waygu breed. that beef is imported to usa. pure wagyu wholesale is about 3X the usa 50% waygu price. (i think i got the 50% correct. number could be different).
we had some usa waygu flank-hanger-london broil type steak last night for party of 6. it was gas grilled rare, and cut on a bias. it was spectacular. it was very tasty, and very tender. i am not normally a fan of that cut area. the beef came from a specialty purveyor who sells only to the restaurant trade.
The waiter also mentioned that most Americans who have had both at their restaurant prefer the American Kobe to the Japanese, as it has more flavour. The American Kobe also has less of a price premium than the Japanese.[/QUOTE]
in usa, to be called wagyu and approved usa waygu association, the cow has to be 50% waygu(breed). in japan has to be 100% waygu breed. i do not thing any 100% waygu is being harvested in usa. new zealand has some 100% waygu breed. that beef is imported to usa. pure wagyu wholesale is about 3X the usa 50% waygu price. (i think i got the 50% correct. number could be different).
we had some usa waygu flank-hanger-london broil type steak last night for party of 6. it was gas grilled rare, and cut on a bias. it was spectacular. it was very tasty, and very tender. i am not normally a fan of that cut area. the beef came from a specialty purveyor who sells only to the restaurant trade.
Jun 28, 2010, 9:44 am
#35
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Can you really taste the difference, or is it just a piece of fatty beef?
I always wonder how much of this is "placebo" effect" and how much of it is truly because the beef is better.
For instance, I know for a fact that when people order de-caf coffee, servers will sometimes bring caffeinated coffee. I know this for a fact because I personally know of servers who simply would just fill the coffee cup with anything, regardless of what the patron asked for. Of course, the patron would not send it back because they could not tell which was de-caf and which was not.
The same with organic food. Other than the label, if you were to eat a piece of organic food, you would not be able to taste the difference between that piece of food and the non-organic food. But people feel better about the food because they know it's organic, not because it tastes any different.(http://intelligencesquaredus.org/ind...arketing-hype/)
The other example is the 1976 blind wine tasting. All the French judges, if tasting openly, would have of course picked french wines. However, they did not; they picked California since it was a blinded tasting. But the "labeling" of the French wines made people think that French was the best. Similarly, is the labeling of "kobe" giving us a placebo effect? If you were to put two pieces of beef cooked identically on a plate, one kobe and one fatty beef, would we be able to tell which is kobe and which is just a piece of fatty beef?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
I wonder how much of this beef actually tastes different. The only difference I tasted was a high-fat content; the beef tasted the same. Does this beef taste different or is it because of the label and high-fat that we think it is better? Is it the placebo effect that we're getting? We may think it's better, but in reality, is it just a piece of fatty beef?
For instance, I know for a fact that when people order de-caf coffee, servers will sometimes bring caffeinated coffee. I know this for a fact because I personally know of servers who simply would just fill the coffee cup with anything, regardless of what the patron asked for. Of course, the patron would not send it back because they could not tell which was de-caf and which was not.
The same with organic food. Other than the label, if you were to eat a piece of organic food, you would not be able to taste the difference between that piece of food and the non-organic food. But people feel better about the food because they know it's organic, not because it tastes any different.(http://intelligencesquaredus.org/ind...arketing-hype/)
The other example is the 1976 blind wine tasting. All the French judges, if tasting openly, would have of course picked french wines. However, they did not; they picked California since it was a blinded tasting. But the "labeling" of the French wines made people think that French was the best. Similarly, is the labeling of "kobe" giving us a placebo effect? If you were to put two pieces of beef cooked identically on a plate, one kobe and one fatty beef, would we be able to tell which is kobe and which is just a piece of fatty beef?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
I wonder how much of this beef actually tastes different. The only difference I tasted was a high-fat content; the beef tasted the same. Does this beef taste different or is it because of the label and high-fat that we think it is better? Is it the placebo effect that we're getting? We may think it's better, but in reality, is it just a piece of fatty beef?
Jun 28, 2010, 10:05 am
#36
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It tastes different. And if you cook it like an American or Australian or what have you steak it will largely ruin it.
When I have had it, mainly in Tokyo, it has been served raw, thinly sliced and with a pot of boiling water and dipping sauces. The slices are lightly dipped in the boiling water to warm them and then in one of the dipping sauces. The thin slices cooked on rocks is interesting too. A big slab grilled, less so.
Originally Posted by SFflyer123
I always wonder how much of this is "placebo" effect" and how much of it is truly because the beef is better.
For instance, I know for a fact that when people order de-caf coffee, servers will sometimes bring caffeinated coffee. I know this for a fact because I personally know of servers who simply would just fill the coffee cup with anything, regardless of what the patron asked for. Of course, the patron would not send it back because they could not tell which was de-caf and which was not.
The same with organic food. Other than the label, if you were to eat a piece of organic food, you would not be able to taste the difference between that piece of food and the non-organic food. But people feel better about the food because they know it's organic, not because it tastes any different.(http://intelligencesquaredus.org/ind...arketing-hype/)
The other example is the 1976 blind wine tasting. All the French judges, if tasting openly, would have of course picked french wines. However, they did not; they picked California since it was a blinded tasting. But the "labeling" of the French wines made people think that French was the best. Similarly, is the labeling of "kobe" giving us a placebo effect? If you were to put two pieces of beef cooked identically on a plate, one kobe and one fatty beef, would we be able to tell which is kobe and which is just a piece of fatty beef?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
I wonder how much of this beef actually tastes different. The only difference I tasted was a high-fat content; the beef tasted the same. Does this beef taste different or is it because of the label and high-fat that we think it is better? Is it the placebo effect that we're getting? We may think it's better, but in reality, is it just a piece of fatty beef?
For instance, I know for a fact that when people order de-caf coffee, servers will sometimes bring caffeinated coffee. I know this for a fact because I personally know of servers who simply would just fill the coffee cup with anything, regardless of what the patron asked for. Of course, the patron would not send it back because they could not tell which was de-caf and which was not.
The same with organic food. Other than the label, if you were to eat a piece of organic food, you would not be able to taste the difference between that piece of food and the non-organic food. But people feel better about the food because they know it's organic, not because it tastes any different.(http://intelligencesquaredus.org/ind...arketing-hype/)
The other example is the 1976 blind wine tasting. All the French judges, if tasting openly, would have of course picked french wines. However, they did not; they picked California since it was a blinded tasting. But the "labeling" of the French wines made people think that French was the best. Similarly, is the labeling of "kobe" giving us a placebo effect? If you were to put two pieces of beef cooked identically on a plate, one kobe and one fatty beef, would we be able to tell which is kobe and which is just a piece of fatty beef?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
I wonder how much of this beef actually tastes different. The only difference I tasted was a high-fat content; the beef tasted the same. Does this beef taste different or is it because of the label and high-fat that we think it is better? Is it the placebo effect that we're getting? We may think it's better, but in reality, is it just a piece of fatty beef?
When I have had it, mainly in Tokyo, it has been served raw, thinly sliced and with a pot of boiling water and dipping sauces. The slices are lightly dipped in the boiling water to warm them and then in one of the dipping sauces. The thin slices cooked on rocks is interesting too. A big slab grilled, less so.
Jun 28, 2010, 3:11 pm
#37
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The same with organic food. Other than the label, if you were to eat a piece of organic food, you would not be able to taste the difference between that piece of food and the non-organic food. But people feel better about the food because they know it's organic, not because it tastes any different.
True about the coffee though. Servers will bring whatever is available in the back at their beverage stations. And the ginger ale you order, often is just sprite with splash of coke
And thanks to this "placebo effect" Smirnoff continues to be rated as the best tasting vodka in the world
Jun 28, 2010, 3:53 pm
#38
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The coffee issue is a red herring. People don't ask for decaf because it tastes different. They ask for decaf because it has doesn't have the drug caffeine in it.
The only real way to tell whether there is a placebo effect would be to follow these patrons home and find out if they were able to sleep that night or not, which I presume you are not doing (as you are still posting here, and haven't been arrested as a peeping tom!)
Again a similar thing with organic food. While some organic foods do have a different taste (and not always for the better), many don't. Most people who choose organic food do so because they believe it to be healthier for them. Just because you can't taste the difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The placebo effect here would be whether or not people are dying less frequently from cancer because they believe they are eating organic food even though they are not.
The wine and vodka similes are really more what we are talking about - where people follow the label and therefore believe it tastes better.
The only real way to tell whether there is a placebo effect would be to follow these patrons home and find out if they were able to sleep that night or not, which I presume you are not doing (as you are still posting here, and haven't been arrested as a peeping tom!)
Again a similar thing with organic food. While some organic foods do have a different taste (and not always for the better), many don't. Most people who choose organic food do so because they believe it to be healthier for them. Just because you can't taste the difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The placebo effect here would be whether or not people are dying less frequently from cancer because they believe they are eating organic food even though they are not.
The wine and vodka similes are really more what we are talking about - where people follow the label and therefore believe it tastes better.
Jun 29, 2010, 8:47 am
#39
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Placebo effect, can we test it?
I think the placebo effect could be easily tested. Have a blind taste test. The best way to do it is at home, where both pieces of meat coudl be cooked identically. The chef could grill or cook one piece of fatty regular steak and another piece of wagyu. Plate them both on different plates, with only the chef knowing which was wagyu and which was not. Then, you could see if 1) there was actually a difference and 2) if people preferred the wagyu or the fatty steak.
I did this blind taste test with my friend who swore that bordeaux wines were better than california. He would always pay a premium for bordeaux over california. We did a blind taste test--a first growth bordeaux vs joseph phelps insignia. Guess what? He chose the insignia! He swore that the phelps was the bordeaux. He was shocked; I was not. I knew that year of insignia blew away many first growth bordeaux's.
I also know that many first growth bordeaux--with their exorbitant prices--and many premier cru brugundies are complete and total rip-offs. If you have the label--chateau lafite or romanee conti--people will savor that glass of wine like it's ambrosia. However, if you gave them that glass blindly and they did not know what it was; most would never be able to tell you that they were drinking an $800 bottle of wine.
So, I personally think that "brand" labeling has a lot to do with what we feel. I cannot say specifically that about kobe since I have not tested it myself, but I bet that is a big component to it.
I did this blind taste test with my friend who swore that bordeaux wines were better than california. He would always pay a premium for bordeaux over california. We did a blind taste test--a first growth bordeaux vs joseph phelps insignia. Guess what? He chose the insignia! He swore that the phelps was the bordeaux. He was shocked; I was not. I knew that year of insignia blew away many first growth bordeaux's.
I also know that many first growth bordeaux--with their exorbitant prices--and many premier cru brugundies are complete and total rip-offs. If you have the label--chateau lafite or romanee conti--people will savor that glass of wine like it's ambrosia. However, if you gave them that glass blindly and they did not know what it was; most would never be able to tell you that they were drinking an $800 bottle of wine.
So, I personally think that "brand" labeling has a lot to do with what we feel. I cannot say specifically that about kobe since I have not tested it myself, but I bet that is a big component to it.
Jun 29, 2010, 9:33 am
#40
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But again, you aren't supposed to cut and cook kobe beef that way. Try thin slicing and boiling your typical streak. Kobe is a very different dish. You are really comparing apples to oranges.
Originally Posted by SFflyer123
I think the placebo effect could be easily tested. Have a blind taste test. The best way to do it is at home, where both pieces of meat coudl be cooked identically. The chef could grill or cook one piece of fatty regular steak and another piece of wagyu. Plate them both on different plates, with only the chef knowing which was wagyu and which was not. Then, you could see if 1) there was actually a difference and 2) if people preferred the wagyu or the fatty steak.
I did this blind taste test with my friend who swore that bordeaux wines were better than california. He would always pay a premium for bordeaux over california. We did a blind taste test--a first growth bordeaux vs joseph phelps insignia. Guess what? He chose the insignia! He swore that the phelps was the bordeaux. He was shocked; I was not. I knew that year of insignia blew away many first growth bordeaux's.
I also know that many first growth bordeaux--with their exorbitant prices--and many premier cru brugundies are complete and total rip-offs. If you have the label--chateau lafite or romanee conti--people will savor that glass of wine like it's ambrosia. However, if you gave them that glass blindly and they did not know what it was; most would never be able to tell you that they were drinking an $800 bottle of wine.
So, I personally think that "brand" labeling has a lot to do with what we feel. I cannot say specifically that about kobe since I have not tested it myself, but I bet that is a big component to it.
I did this blind taste test with my friend who swore that bordeaux wines were better than california. He would always pay a premium for bordeaux over california. We did a blind taste test--a first growth bordeaux vs joseph phelps insignia. Guess what? He chose the insignia! He swore that the phelps was the bordeaux. He was shocked; I was not. I knew that year of insignia blew away many first growth bordeaux's.
I also know that many first growth bordeaux--with their exorbitant prices--and many premier cru brugundies are complete and total rip-offs. If you have the label--chateau lafite or romanee conti--people will savor that glass of wine like it's ambrosia. However, if you gave them that glass blindly and they did not know what it was; most would never be able to tell you that they were drinking an $800 bottle of wine.
So, I personally think that "brand" labeling has a lot to do with what we feel. I cannot say specifically that about kobe since I have not tested it myself, but I bet that is a big component to it.
Jun 29, 2010, 11:06 am
#41
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I've just had a Waygu steak for the first time and my opinion is that it is exactly as described by others - very soft, sort of fatty, but tasty, and it confirmed my impression stated earlier that it probably wouldn't be for me. I feel like my cholesterol level has jumped 20 points. It was the most expensive steak I've ever had, and by next week I will have forgotten it already.
Jul 1, 2010, 2:11 pm
#43
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I just returned from Japan where I had my first Wagyu beef experiences. Over the course of the trip we had it prepared three ways:
1. Thinly sliced, steamed with veggies and served with a dipping sauce
2. Ground with ginger, made into a patty and served in a hot rock bowl
3. Thinly sliced, cooked on hot rock and (I think) served with a dipping sauce
All three were phenomenal! I'm not a huge steak eater, but loved every bite.
1. Thinly sliced, steamed with veggies and served with a dipping sauce
2. Ground with ginger, made into a patty and served in a hot rock bowl
3. Thinly sliced, cooked on hot rock and (I think) served with a dipping sauce
All three were phenomenal! I'm not a huge steak eater, but loved every bite.
Jul 1, 2010, 3:01 pm
#44
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It really does depend on what you're looking for. As some posters have already pointed out Wagyu or Kobe are generally best served in small preparations, whereas I would never consider ordering a Wagyu sirloin steak as I think the price premium is a waste of money.
Go to a really good Teppanyaki restaurant in Japan and you will savour the sweet flavours of the paper thin slices of the beef, or in New York try the wagyu tartare at River Cafe in Brooklyn - delicious.
Go to a really good Teppanyaki restaurant in Japan and you will savour the sweet flavours of the paper thin slices of the beef, or in New York try the wagyu tartare at River Cafe in Brooklyn - delicious.
Jul 1, 2010, 5:22 pm
#45
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I'm with those that like it shabu shabu style. Really delicious (as is the broth that develops in the pot...).
I have to express my thanks to those on this thread who have complimented Australian grass fed beef. I do think it is amongst the best in the world, not necessarily for texture (as number_6 has observed, but certainly for flavour. And I've eaten steak in a lot of places.
I have to express my thanks to those on this thread who have complimented Australian grass fed beef. I do think it is amongst the best in the world, not necessarily for texture (as number_6 has observed, but certainly for flavour. And I've eaten steak in a lot of places.