Last minute aircraft downgrade LAX-JFK
May 29, 2015, 8:45 am
#61
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Not saying that ast all, but if you cant find a suitable aircraft to sub for one of the flatbeds, then any aircraft will obviously have to do. In that case, if the aircraft has standard F seats, then a full refund should be automatically given to those pax that paid for J, or at least the difference between the J and F product. I bet B6 would do just that. Speaking of B6, have they at any time had to cancel a MINT plane and sub it with an all Y plane on JFK - LAX/SFO?
May 29, 2015, 8:48 am
#62
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For all of those of you who love to talk about "last minute" "full fare" for $2k...
Hi Folks,
There's lots of talk on this forum about "the person that bought the last minute $2k fare in J for lie flat seats, etc. etc.) Just FYI - Full J fare on this route is $6523.20. You better bet that if I paid that and got regular transcon F (full fare $2821.40), I would be demanding a huge refund.
Granted, very few people pay full J on this route, but those of us that do expect the service and equipment to reflect the huge fare difference. This route competes heavily with UA PS service which has three classes (I think it still does). The fares are similar on UA (and also ridiculous).
TFD
There's lots of talk on this forum about "the person that bought the last minute $2k fare in J for lie flat seats, etc. etc.) Just FYI - Full J fare on this route is $6523.20. You better bet that if I paid that and got regular transcon F (full fare $2821.40), I would be demanding a huge refund.
Granted, very few people pay full J on this route, but those of us that do expect the service and equipment to reflect the huge fare difference. This route competes heavily with UA PS service which has three classes (I think it still does). The fares are similar on UA (and also ridiculous).
TFD
New laptop - See edited post above.
May 29, 2015, 9:20 am
#65
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Hi Folks,
There's lots of talk on this forum about "the person that bought the last minute $2k fare in J for lie flat seats, etc. etc.) Just FYI - Full J fare on this route is $6523.20. You better bet that if I paid that and got regular transcon F (full fare $2821.40), I would be demanding a huge refund.
Granted, very few people pay full J on this route, but those of us that do expect the service and equipment to reflect the huge fare difference. This route competes heavily with UA PS service which has three classes (I think it still does). The fares are similar on UA (and also ridiculous).
TFD
There's lots of talk on this forum about "the person that bought the last minute $2k fare in J for lie flat seats, etc. etc.) Just FYI - Full J fare on this route is $6523.20. You better bet that if I paid that and got regular transcon F (full fare $2821.40), I would be demanding a huge refund.
Granted, very few people pay full J on this route, but those of us that do expect the service and equipment to reflect the huge fare difference. This route competes heavily with UA PS service which has three classes (I think it still does). The fares are similar on UA (and also ridiculous).
TFD
In fact, I think the same principle should apply to any downgrade situation, including cases of being rerouted to a worse and cheaper routing, such as TPAC connections through SEA. Since the affected passenger did not choose to purchase coach (at the prevailing price on the date the ticket was purchased) or opted for a routing that avoids SEA, they are entitled to somewhat more than just the fare difference when they are subjected to various types of involuntary downgrades, regardless of the reason. [DL doesn't get a free pass on this for events beyond their control as they are still not providing the service that was purchased, whether due to MX, OPS problems, WX, ATC, or whatever.]
May 29, 2015, 9:55 am
#66
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Granted, very few people pay full J on this route, but those of us that do expect the service and equipment to reflect the huge fare difference. This route competes heavily with UA PS service which has three classes (I think it still does). The fares are similar on UA (and also ridiculous).
TFD
United no longer offers 3 class service on this route, only American does.
May 29, 2015, 10:04 am
#67
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,881
Even if someone didn't purchase FULL F, they still deserve a generous refund. IMO the refund should be more than the fare difference since if they had wanted ordinary FC for the normal FC fare, they would have purchased that instead of a D1/BE transcon ticket. However, since DL did fly the person from A to B (presumably in FC), they are not entitled to a full refund of the entire price they paid for the ticket.
In fact, I think the same principle should apply to any downgrade situation, including cases of being rerouted to a worse and cheaper routing, such as TPAC connections through SEA. Since the affected passenger did not choose to purchase coach (at the prevailing price on the date the ticket was purchased) or opted for a routing that avoids SEA, they are entitled to somewhat more than just the fare difference when they are subjected to various types of involuntary downgrades, regardless of the reason. [DL doesn't get a free pass on this for events beyond their control as they are still not providing the service that was purchased, whether due to MX, OPS problems, WX, ATC, or whatever.]
In fact, I think the same principle should apply to any downgrade situation, including cases of being rerouted to a worse and cheaper routing, such as TPAC connections through SEA. Since the affected passenger did not choose to purchase coach (at the prevailing price on the date the ticket was purchased) or opted for a routing that avoids SEA, they are entitled to somewhat more than just the fare difference when they are subjected to various types of involuntary downgrades, regardless of the reason. [DL doesn't get a free pass on this for events beyond their control as they are still not providing the service that was purchased, whether due to MX, OPS problems, WX, ATC, or whatever.]
Weather is the risk of traveling with any mode of transportation. I wouldn't expect Ford to put me in a hotel if my Fusion couldn't get me to Seattle due to bad weather. Why expect any airline to put you in a hotel because it can't get you to Seattle due to bad weather?
Maintenance & mechanical delays are within an airline's control and they do compensate for those irops.
May 29, 2015, 10:20 am
#68
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So hotels for weather irops too?
Weather is the risk of traveling with any mode of transportation. I wouldn't expect Ford to put me in a hotel if my Fusion couldn't get me to Seattle due to bad weather. Why expect any airline to put you in a hotel because it can't get you to Seattle due to bad weather?
Maintenance & mechanical delays are within an airline's control and they do compensate for those irops.
Weather is the risk of traveling with any mode of transportation. I wouldn't expect Ford to put me in a hotel if my Fusion couldn't get me to Seattle due to bad weather. Why expect any airline to put you in a hotel because it can't get you to Seattle due to bad weather?
Maintenance & mechanical delays are within an airline's control and they do compensate for those irops.
My point is simple: If I purchased a FC ticket (of whatever flavor) when I could have instead bought coach (or could have purchased a ticket on another airline), then (assuming no ties here), I did this because I preferred FC at the price I paid over all of the other available choices. If DL downgrades me (for whatever reason) and simply refunds the fare difference, I'm worse off. In fact, I might have preferred to travel on some other airline over coach on DL at the coach fare that DL was offering.
I shouldn't bear the risk because DL largely controls the probabilities in that DL decides which flights get the substitute aircraft, which particular passengers are downgraded, generally which flights are cancelled when there's a choice, etc. and I have no way of knowing or verifying these probabilities. In fact, AFAIK DL doesn't publish it's criteria for involunvary downgrade priorities and as a passenger, I would have no way to know whether the procedure had been followed (versus for IDBs, where at least the affected passengers can see whether the GAs in fact solicited volunteers as required).
May 29, 2015, 11:12 am
#69
Join Date: Mar 2010
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No, I didn't say anything about hotels as they're not owned/operated by DL the way flights are. However, IF (and AFAIK this isn't true) DL policy is to be more generous in providing hotels to BE/D1 passengers on the domestic JFK transcons, then DL should be equally generous about the hotel if the JFK transcon aircraft has been downgraded to ordinary domestic FC or if the passenger is rebooked onto a connecting flight during IROPs.
My point is simple: If I purchased a FC ticket (of whatever flavor) when I could have instead bought coach (or could have purchased a ticket on another airline), then (assuming no ties here), I did this because I preferred FC at the price I paid over all of the other available choices. If DL downgrades me (for whatever reason) and simply refunds the fare difference, I'm worse off. In fact, I might have preferred to travel on some other airline over coach on DL at the coach fare that DL was offering.
I shouldn't bear the risk because DL largely controls the probabilities in that DL decides which flights get the substitute aircraft, which particular passengers are downgraded, generally which flights are cancelled when there's a choice, etc. and I have no way of knowing or verifying these probabilities. In fact, AFAIK DL doesn't publish it's criteria for involunvary downgrade priorities and as a passenger, I would have no way to know whether the procedure had been followed (versus for IDBs, where at least the affected passengers can see whether the GAs in fact solicited volunteers as required).
My point is simple: If I purchased a FC ticket (of whatever flavor) when I could have instead bought coach (or could have purchased a ticket on another airline), then (assuming no ties here), I did this because I preferred FC at the price I paid over all of the other available choices. If DL downgrades me (for whatever reason) and simply refunds the fare difference, I'm worse off. In fact, I might have preferred to travel on some other airline over coach on DL at the coach fare that DL was offering.
I shouldn't bear the risk because DL largely controls the probabilities in that DL decides which flights get the substitute aircraft, which particular passengers are downgraded, generally which flights are cancelled when there's a choice, etc. and I have no way of knowing or verifying these probabilities. In fact, AFAIK DL doesn't publish it's criteria for involunvary downgrade priorities and as a passenger, I would have no way to know whether the procedure had been followed (versus for IDBs, where at least the affected passengers can see whether the GAs in fact solicited volunteers as required).
May 29, 2015, 11:16 am
#70
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,881
No, I didn't say anything about hotels as they're not owned/operated by DL the way flights are. However, IF (and AFAIK this isn't true) DL policy is to be more generous in providing hotels to BE/D1 passengers on the domestic JFK transcons, then DL should be equally generous about the hotel if the JFK transcon aircraft has been downgraded to ordinary domestic FC or if the passenger is rebooked onto a connecting flight during IROPs.
My point is simple: If I purchased a FC ticket (of whatever flavor) when I could have instead bought coach (or could have purchased a ticket on another airline), then (assuming no ties here), I did this because I preferred FC at the price I paid over all of the other available choices. If DL downgrades me (for whatever reason) and simply refunds the fare difference, I'm worse off. In fact, I might have preferred to travel on some other airline over coach on DL at the coach fare that DL was offering.
I shouldn't bear the risk because DL largely controls the probabilities in that DL decides which flights get the substitute aircraft, which particular passengers are downgraded, generally which flights are cancelled when there's a choice, etc. and I have no way of knowing or verifying these probabilities. In fact, AFAIK DL doesn't publish it's criteria for involunvary downgrade priorities and as a passenger, I would have no way to know whether the procedure had been followed (versus for IDBs, where at least the affected passengers can see whether the GAs in fact solicited volunteers as required).
My point is simple: If I purchased a FC ticket (of whatever flavor) when I could have instead bought coach (or could have purchased a ticket on another airline), then (assuming no ties here), I did this because I preferred FC at the price I paid over all of the other available choices. If DL downgrades me (for whatever reason) and simply refunds the fare difference, I'm worse off. In fact, I might have preferred to travel on some other airline over coach on DL at the coach fare that DL was offering.
I shouldn't bear the risk because DL largely controls the probabilities in that DL decides which flights get the substitute aircraft, which particular passengers are downgraded, generally which flights are cancelled when there's a choice, etc. and I have no way of knowing or verifying these probabilities. In fact, AFAIK DL doesn't publish it's criteria for involunvary downgrade priorities and as a passenger, I would have no way to know whether the procedure had been followed (versus for IDBs, where at least the affected passengers can see whether the GAs in fact solicited volunteers as required).
I think every airline should compensate for all downgrades of cabin. Airlines shouldn't have to compensate for weather or ATC delays.
May 29, 2015, 11:31 am
#71
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I think that MSPs point is that if weather issues causes the airline to force a downgrade that there should still be some compensation for this downgrade. I think this is a fair point because this would provide some incentive for the airline to try to rebook people in the class of service purchased. Currently the attitude can be something like: you should be grateful that we got you from point a to point b. This ignores the fact that the PAX has all sorts of other options to get there (driving, bus, other airlines) but choose to purchase transportation from DL.
May 29, 2015, 12:06 pm
#72
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In fact, I would also add that offering premium cabin travel on a later flight or a downgrade for travel at the scheduled time does not change the involuntary nature of such downgrades.
May 29, 2015, 1:39 pm
#73
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Fine, the food service is too much for a crappy old plane's teeny old galley.
What about....amenity kits? They could at least still give out the stupid earplugs and eyeshades and tumi kits. There is no valid reason on earth to drop those from the flight service. None at all.
Stupid.
Anyway, I did write a cranky email to Delta about it and they gave me some skymiles and a letter in reply that regurgitated every single sentence of my original note to them, with "I understand that...".
Here was my email, for example: "There were no power outlets on the flight."
Their note: "I understand that there were no power outlets on the flight."
It's like they are just trying to talk down a crazy person from the ledge.
Still, they replied within a couple of hours and miles are miles so, all in all, they were pretty satisfactory in handling my very first world complaint.
What about....amenity kits? They could at least still give out the stupid earplugs and eyeshades and tumi kits. There is no valid reason on earth to drop those from the flight service. None at all.
Stupid.
Anyway, I did write a cranky email to Delta about it and they gave me some skymiles and a letter in reply that regurgitated every single sentence of my original note to them, with "I understand that...".
Here was my email, for example: "There were no power outlets on the flight."
Their note: "I understand that there were no power outlets on the flight."
It's like they are just trying to talk down a crazy person from the ledge.
Still, they replied within a couple of hours and miles are miles so, all in all, they were pretty satisfactory in handling my very first world complaint.
May 29, 2015, 1:46 pm
#74
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First on this terrible aircraft...versus Comfort+ on the wonderful aircraft....which is a better experience depends on which amenities you prioritize.
If you are relying on power to get work done - I'd take Comfort+ in a flash.
If you just want space and a blanket/pillow - of course CrapFirst is better.
But it just depends on what you need to be doing, for the 5 hours. Sleeping or working?
May 29, 2015, 6:24 pm
#75
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Not at all. They are nice for a short flight. Could not imagine keeping them for multiple flights. Some FA collect them...others do not. They also have the dual plug that makes them useless.
They are not mine to keep. It's a bit like hotel towels. You could keep them, but why? They are nice, but my towels at home are nicer. The towels at my house have also not been used by countless people. The headphones are nice, but mine are nicer. And my headphones have not been used by countless people.
They are not mine to keep. It's a bit like hotel towels. You could keep them, but why? They are nice, but my towels at home are nicer. The towels at my house have also not been used by countless people. The headphones are nice, but mine are nicer. And my headphones have not been used by countless people.