Jacobin777

Maybe someone should point out to you that Clark/EK are making nice healthy profits and return dividends to shareholders.

^

So I guess its ok for Richard Anderson to "stab the backs" of U.S.-based corporations but its not ok for customers to choose which carrier they want to fly?

Sounds like hypocrisy at its best.

One person/family choosing EK over a U.S.-based carrier financially is multitude times smaller than DL's CEO choosing 50 Airbus wide bodies over Boeing. Then there is the supply chain line, servicing, etc.

I guess its ok then.

Last I recall AA flies 10 in the back as well. I wouldn't be surprised if UA and eventually DL go that route as well.


The ME3 provide superior inflight experience in Y as well-thus why so many people choose them.

DL & ethics? That's a good one.

" Delta Air Lines, JetBlue Airways, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and United Airlines, outsourced 71 percent of their heavy airframe maintenance checks in 2007. Almost 27 percent of these heavy airframe repairs were outsourced to repair shops overseas."

http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=18872

" Delta takes part of its Boeing fleet for repairs to Guatemala, Guadalajara, and Mexico City, while taking others to repair centers in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taipei."

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/thir...oeing-a/nDNwr/

And straight from Delta's mouth?

"Because the way we do our maintenance
at the airline is the heavy airframe maintenance is typically outsourced"

http://ir.delta.com/files/Investor%2...Transcript.pdf

krazykanuck

I've only flown EK in the back cabin and truthfully would put it close to flying biz on the NA carriers. Give me free drinks, edible food, and a good IFE system and I'm most of the way happy. EK also generally has great crews. I've had great crews on UA and those other carriers, but they're fewer.

The NA carriers are just whining because they know they have a weaker product and don't want to invest in making it competitive, so they'd rather just not let people have access to the competition. When I was flying home from Egypt last month, I was chatting with a guy from DC. He was flying EK...CAI-DXB-DCA, as opposed to flying via Europe on KLM/AF/DL. His reason was the service, plus the schedule. Flying the wrong way to DXB managed to get him home faster than via Europe b/c the flight to DXB leaves 6-8 hrs earlier than the flights to Europe. He said EK is also generally cheaper than the legacy carries.

It's a brave new world for airlines...

DL2SXM

Its amazing how little people really know about this dispute. But then again, this is FT.

SFO777

It certainly is, especially when one looks thru DL-colored glasses.

readywhenyouare

The only thing the consumer needs to understand is that competition from the ME3 is a good thing. Mr. Anderson is a hypocrite of the highest caliber. The U.S. airlines benefit from plenty of subsidies but it's Delta's own choosing to run a subpar product against the international airlines. AA and UA are also guilty of bad product offerings but at least their CEO's aren't running about and making a jackass out of themselves.

LEONIDES

Honestly, for the flying public in the U.S., why wouldn't we want them to come? Seriously? If they can compete effectively against the U.S. carriers, then let them in! Surely they can deliver better service than the troika.

For those of us who have seen service on the troika deteriorate over the past 20 years, this would be a welcome change. Since most service on the troika stinks, it might actually make flying bearable again.

(As you can tell, I am completely jaded about the state of the travel industry in the U.S., and I am honest about it. This is the type of game-changer that could actually produce a dramatic improvement in customer service in the U.S.)

What? You're afraid that this could push some of the troika carriers out of business? My response to that would be.....Hallelujah! They're gone! Good riddance! That would serve them right, for letting their produce become so appallingly bad. Don't let the door hit you in the butt, on the way out of this industry.

UAAAPeter

I guess it is that time of night to irritate a few DL Diamonds who get company paid Biz class tickets all the time. For normal people, here is the deal.

1. Americans are the biggest hypocrites in the world. Say they love capitalism and competition, but when they get it, they get all huffy. Just like elementary school kids when Miss Brown takes their candies away in class and whacks them over their knuckles with a ruler. Or should. You might say it takes one to spot one of course. And the management of DL, AA and UA are the worst of the worst, needless to say.

2. And then when it does not work out for the CEOs of US Airlines - what do they do?
a) Take away their workers' pensions
b) Fire half the staff and outsource the rest at half the pay
c) Play games with forward fuel contracts and get it right - exactly half of the time - like Einstein would predict
d) Go bankrupt and get rid of every single contract they don't like
e) Give themselves a massive bonus

This industry is a scam from beginning to end. And the biggest scammers of course are we people on FT who know the rules rather well. See you in First where we can discuss this little matter some more over a large drink or two....

IRISHFLYER1

PM Has been totally devalued!!

us2

Contracts of adhesion are generally disfavored in the US, which is what you're advocating. Not to mention contracts that violate numerous well-established US labor laws.

pokeable

I've done TPACs in Y multiple times, KE and DL in 777s. Excluding the warm cabin for the KE flights: food, service, cleanliness and IFE were better on KE than DL. Added bonus there are direct flights to ICN from IAD.

I've done TATL (IAD-DXB) once in Y on EK, on a 777. Again, light years better compared to a similar duration flight on the same plane type, EK v. DL.

FWIW Last time in the ME, flew EK DXB-DOH on a 777 in J; 60 minute flight, lie-flat seating, full meals offered (and declined, had dinner plans on landing, both legs), lots of champagne with friendly FAs and purser.

EK or KE J flying East or West for me...granted, much easier since I cut the DL cord.

LEONIDES

There is capitalism - then there is crony capitalism. Please don't confuse the two. I think a lot of what has been discussed here is crony capitalism. Both US and ME airlines practice it, and both are in denial over it.

US Airlines received billions in subsidies after the 9-11 attacks. That is what kept them afloat during this period. If we are honest, we would criticize them just as much for their government subsidies, as we are of the ME airlines. Maybe the ME airlines are worse - but honestly, neither side can claim to be cronyism-free.

Some of us work in industries where no government subsidies will ever be paid. And others work in industries that pay huge taxes and royalties to the government. The whole situation is grossly unfair - and honestly, it is badly in need of reformation.

We need to eliminate all forms of government subsidies to private corporations - and other forms of preference, such as tax preferences, which function as subsidies. At the same time, we need to move to a flat system of taxation in this country for all corporation. Exxon pays a 35% tax rate, whereas Google pays less than 3%. No sane person would believe this to be fair.

SamuelS

My comment was that I have friends that work in various airline safety capacities, pilots etc. at both N American and Asian carriers - I did not mention ME3 carriers and did not imply that there is a bigger risk to life from flying ME3 carriers.

I stand by my comments with respect to some operations in Asia. Some of the Thai and Indonesian operators in particular have some serious issues and I've had friends that have held senior safety positions at some of those carriers that have walked away because of significant concerns on safety culture, SMS, equipment issues etc. Going into those specific carriers and issues would not be relevant to the thread or to the Delta FT board, but you're welcome to PM me.

SamuelS

As always, YMMV.

A company I worked for would routinely schedule me on GF and I found the Y experience to be underwhelming... I never once had an experience that was notably superior to most other longhaul Y experiences on any number of carriers.

Maybe EK is dramatically better than GF? Maybe GF has dramatically turned around their Y offering in last couple of years? Ultimately, these boards are about sharing experiences, thoughts and opinions. I certainly respect those of others but I guess GF in particular never had a product down the back that I was particularly excited about.

cmd320

What's truly amazing to me is how far people will go to defend an obviously inferior product of a company which has made it quite clear that the customer is not at the center of their operation, simply because said company happens to be based in their home country. Whether it's AA, DL, or UA, they're all the same homogenized garbage at this point. It's quite amazing to me that people remain loyal to such companies who clearly and repeatedly respect their customers so little.

LEONIDES

This is even more reason to allow foreign-based carriers to compete in the U.S. market. It is high time for this. This should have been done decades ago.

Seriously, if one of the ME airlines was allowed to fly the routes out of IAH to SFO and ORD, I would probably never fly the Troika again. And that would be a happy day for me.

Imagine if the Japanese and German car companies were not allowed to compete in the domestic U.S. market - and we all had to buy craptastically bad autos from Detroit? That is the equivalent to what we have today in the airline industry. It is sickening really, when you think about it.

The reason why most of us stick with the Troika is because we currently have no choice. I would love to go back and take one of the flights on TWA or Eastern from the 1970s - but they all gone. Until we get more competition in this industry, the quality levels are only going to deteriorate. That really means that we will need foreign competition, because I don't see anyone else starting a legacy carrier in the U.S. anytime soon.

So please bring on the foreigners, and let them enter the domestic market. And if Anderson or Smisek object to this, my response will be "OH BOO HOO!"