AA Asks U.S. Government for DL's Daily Seattle-Tokyo Haneda Route
Oct 4, 2014, 4:23 am
#18
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I find this so interesting. Has anyone really made a HND route work? While I was based in London, BA's HND route had notoriously low yields (admittedly the landing slot timing makes for very poor route timing out of LHR...not sure if there are similar issues exUSA). It looks like all the exUSA HND routes have been in constant flux since being awarded. Why the all the romance drama?
That said, I'd personally love an exLAX route given I'm now based here in SoCal.
That said, I'd personally love an exLAX route given I'm now based here in SoCal.
Oct 4, 2014, 4:48 am
#19
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True, but Japanese carriers don't have the restrictions on timing that US carriers do. Also HA is a bit different market then mainland US. I bet if US carriers could have the same access they'd be able to do something with the route.
Oct 4, 2014, 6:15 am
#20
Join Date: Mar 2008
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The Japanese carriers DO have the advantage of being able to make better use of planes between flights. However, this hasn't actually been a reality with JL's flight, but that will change in December when SFO-HND changes to a 12AM dep/5AM arr.
Daytime HND slots have been set aside from US flights, but there's apparently a delay in negotiations between Japan and DOT.
Oct 4, 2014, 11:51 am
#21
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
It's like a romance drama.
2010: DOT awards 4 slots to HA (HNL), AA (JFK), and DL (LAX, DTW). UA (SFO) and CO (EWR, GUM) lose out. AA also doesn't get LAX.
2012: DL cancels DTW, requests for shift to SEA. UA/HA counterapply w/ KOA and SFO, but DL wins again.
2013: AA cancels JFK-HND. UA/HA apply to take over the slot; UA wins and they start that service later this month.
2014: AA applies for LAX-HND in place of the nearly-dormant SEA-HND by DL. Verdict remains to be seen.
In other words:
Slot 1: HA (HNL)
Slot 2: DL (LAX)
Slot 3: DL→DL→AA? (DTW, SEA, LAX?)
Slot 4: AA→UA (JFK, SFO)
2010: DOT awards 4 slots to HA (HNL), AA (JFK), and DL (LAX, DTW). UA (SFO) and CO (EWR, GUM) lose out. AA also doesn't get LAX.
2012: DL cancels DTW, requests for shift to SEA. UA/HA counterapply w/ KOA and SFO, but DL wins again.
2013: AA cancels JFK-HND. UA/HA apply to take over the slot; UA wins and they start that service later this month.
2014: AA applies for LAX-HND in place of the nearly-dormant SEA-HND by DL. Verdict remains to be seen.
In other words:
Slot 1: HA (HNL)
Slot 2: DL (LAX)
Slot 3: DL→DL→AA? (DTW, SEA, LAX?)
Slot 4: AA→UA (JFK, SFO)
I have absolutely no power
but if I did:slot 1: HA - HNL. HNL needs HND service. HA is a good choice for that service.
slot 2: ok, LAX by DL is ok. LAX by AA would have also been ok but they didn't get it.
slot 4: UA SFO is a very good choice even though it was not in the original decision.
slot 3: with 1, 2, and 4 in place, there may be:
DL SEA seasonal
AA LAX
CO GUM, EWR (CO is now called UA)
HA KOA
With that, I vote DL SEA but AA LAX is second.
Seems to be no UA ORD, UA IAH, UA IAD, DL ATL, AA DFW, AA ORD demand.
Oct 4, 2014, 2:37 pm
#22
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,664
I find this so interesting. Has anyone really made a HND route work? While I was based in London, BA's HND route had notoriously low yields (admittedly the landing slot timing makes for very poor route timing out of LHR...not sure if there are similar issues exUSA). It looks like all the exUSA HND routes have been in constant flux since being awarded. Why the all the romance drama?
That said, I'd personally love an exLAX route given I'm now based here in SoCal.
That said, I'd personally love an exLAX route given I'm now based here in SoCal.
Last edited by ROCAT; Oct 4, 2014 at 2:49 pm
Oct 4, 2014, 3:55 pm
#23
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Frankly, I haven't actually seen any evidence that HA, JL, or NH are doing well on their routes. We have speculation, and they don't seem as eager to abandon the routes as the some other carriers, but JL and NH, at least, don't exactly make a lot of money. It could be simply that the other carriers are doing just as poorly, but don't have anywhere better to fly the planes...
Oct 4, 2014, 4:12 pm
#24
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Oct 4, 2014, 7:32 pm
#28
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AA should have benefited similarly to JAL on their JFK-HND route and didn't.
Frankly, I haven't actually seen any evidence that HA, JL, or NH are doing well on their routes. We have speculation, and they don't seem as eager to abandon the routes as the some other carriers, but JL and NH, at least, don't exactly make a lot of money. It could be simply that the other carriers are doing just as poorly, but don't have anywhere better to fly the planes...
Frankly, I haven't actually seen any evidence that HA, JL, or NH are doing well on their routes. We have speculation, and they don't seem as eager to abandon the routes as the some other carriers, but JL and NH, at least, don't exactly make a lot of money. It could be simply that the other carriers are doing just as poorly, but don't have anywhere better to fly the planes...
I don't have specific statistics, apart from my booking experiences. But for the cities served by the same airline from both HND and NRT, HND has the higher prices and sell out earlier.
The financial performance of ANA and JAL compared to the US counterparts might have more to do with absence of nickel and dime'ing the passengers at each possible step, than it has to do with poor yields out of Haneda.
Last edited by CPH-Flyer; Oct 4, 2014 at 7:33 pm Reason: typos
Oct 4, 2014, 9:05 pm
#29
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Frankly, I haven't actually seen any evidence that HA, JL, or NH are doing well on their routes. We have speculation, and they don't seem as eager to abandon the routes as the some other carriers, but JL and NH, at least, don't exactly make a lot of money. It could be simply that the other carriers are doing just as poorly, but don't have anywhere better to fly the planes...
JAL has been extremely profitable since exiting Japan's version of bankruptcy reorganization. with profit margins that are the envy of the worldwide industry. Don't know how much money JAL makes on its SFO-HND flight, but overall, JAL's profits are impressive.
The AA flight from JFK arrived very late in the evening, when domestic connections were all gone, so there were no benefits of domestic connections, the aircraft then spend 8 hours on the ground departing in the morning. With the initial slot times it was difficult to make it profitable for AA. With the day time slots now available, that might be easier.
As I posted above, JAL's profit margins since exiting bankruptcy put even DL's margins to shame.
Oct 4, 2014, 9:20 pm
#30
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JAL has been extremely profitable since exiting Japan's version of bankruptcy reorganization. with profit margins that are the envy of the worldwide industry. Don't know how much money JAL makes on its SFO-HND flight, but overall, JAL's profits are impressive.
<snip>
As I posted above, JAL's profit margins since exiting bankruptcy put even DL's margins to shame.