Delta cautiously optimistic about JV with Korean Air?
Jul 27, 2014, 11:18 pm
#46
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
I would fly SkyTeam if DL would treat KE better. All my flights are ex-Korea, so I would prefer (1) getting better DL credit for KE flights (including status bonuses) or (2) a JV between KE and DL (but, the way DL has treated KE makes for some really negative feelings here where face is important - many Koreans feel DL to be the villain and avoid DL in general over KE or OZ or UA or AA.
Jul 28, 2014, 12:03 am
#47
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo
Programs: DL Diamond, ANA Platinum
Posts: 1,532
Flown both short haul and long haul in Y and C between Japan and Korea, the U.S. and Europe, and have experienced their ground and air staff. The only thing DL has over KE is its homepage.
I stand by my opinion that KE is a better serviced airline than DL is for a majority of longhaul travelers. KE is the only airline that gives Skyteam any semblance of legitimacy in Asia, and anything that prevents DL pax from being able to access KE's network is nothing short of a huge loss for its customers.
Yup, and I would assume they are the primary targets of a potential JV, not so much the high-fare paying pax.
I stand by my opinion that KE is a better serviced airline than DL is for a majority of longhaul travelers. KE is the only airline that gives Skyteam any semblance of legitimacy in Asia, and anything that prevents DL pax from being able to access KE's network is nothing short of a huge loss for its customers.
Yup, and I would assume they are the primary targets of a potential JV, not so much the high-fare paying pax.
Last edited by FireEmblemPride; Jul 28, 2014 at 12:10 am
Jul 28, 2014, 1:33 am
#48
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: BSL/FRA or PHL
Programs: LH Miles and More, DL SkyMiles, Bonvoy, Hilton
Posts: 2,335
Treating KE as a poor step-child worked for me. I simply joined SkyPass. The program is not so bad. I have zero interest in making a stop at NRT on my way to Korea when there is a perfectly good nonstop option.
I wouldn't say the on-board service on KE or DL is better or worse (though I do think both companies have upped their long-haul game a bit in general over the past couple of years), but more a different style.
If the two companies can get their acts together on better mutual recognition and respect for each other as founding SkyTeam members, it would be great, but as for me, I don't have time for their silly internal squabbles...
I wouldn't say the on-board service on KE or DL is better or worse (though I do think both companies have upped their long-haul game a bit in general over the past couple of years), but more a different style.
If the two companies can get their acts together on better mutual recognition and respect for each other as founding SkyTeam members, it would be great, but as for me, I don't have time for their silly internal squabbles...
Jul 28, 2014, 8:31 am
#49
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: LGA/JFK
Programs: DL PM, UA Premier, AA Gold, Hertz PC, National Exec Elite, Sixt Plat
Posts: 500
I would love to see a DL-KE JV finally take place so it brings back KE to Tier 1 instead of the Tier 4 it is right now. As someone who travels frequently to Seoul, I'll have to admit that I took KE on nonstop flights until DL decided not to award MQMs anymore. Now, I fly DL via DTW to ICN.
The soft product on DL has improved over the past couple years in Y. The meals are a bit better than it was 2 years ago but I still think KE has better meals overall. DL could try to make the meals better IMO. DL's 747 has better AVOD than KE as well (the movie collection is pretty amazing). In terms of cleanliness, I think KE still wins because they would frequently service the lavatories whereas the DL lavatories were not as frequently serviced throughout the flight. If DL can have lavatories cleaned more, I think it would really bring their soft product on par with KE. My wife also appreciates the ladies only lavs on KE which DL does not do. The biggest improvement is the new int'l wifi on DL; this is just another reason in addition to MQMs that will make me fly DL.
I have noticed more and more native Koreans taking DL as well over the past few years. DL has really upped their marketing in Seoul and I think it's starting to show. On average, DL has cheaper flights than KE to the US and so this is also a big factor. On every DL flight, there have been Korean speaking flight attendants (however, some are pretty bad when they do the announcements).
It'll be interesting to see what happens with a potential JV b/w DL and KE in the future.
The soft product on DL has improved over the past couple years in Y. The meals are a bit better than it was 2 years ago but I still think KE has better meals overall. DL could try to make the meals better IMO. DL's 747 has better AVOD than KE as well (the movie collection is pretty amazing). In terms of cleanliness, I think KE still wins because they would frequently service the lavatories whereas the DL lavatories were not as frequently serviced throughout the flight. If DL can have lavatories cleaned more, I think it would really bring their soft product on par with KE. My wife also appreciates the ladies only lavs on KE which DL does not do. The biggest improvement is the new int'l wifi on DL; this is just another reason in addition to MQMs that will make me fly DL.
I have noticed more and more native Koreans taking DL as well over the past few years. DL has really upped their marketing in Seoul and I think it's starting to show. On average, DL has cheaper flights than KE to the US and so this is also a big factor. On every DL flight, there have been Korean speaking flight attendants (however, some are pretty bad when they do the announcements).
It'll be interesting to see what happens with a potential JV b/w DL and KE in the future.
Jul 28, 2014, 9:17 pm
#50
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: DL DM, TK Elite (*Gold), AA EXP (matched and prob not for long!)
Posts: 251
I would love to see a DL-KE JV finally take place so it brings back KE to Tier 1 instead of the Tier 4 it is right now. As someone who travels frequently to Seoul, I'll have to admit that I took KE on nonstop flights until DL decided not to award MQMs anymore. Now, I fly DL via DTW to ICN.
The soft product on DL has improved over the past couple years in Y. The meals are a bit better than it was 2 years ago but I still think KE has better meals overall. DL could try to make the meals better IMO. DL's 747 has better AVOD than KE as well (the movie collection is pretty amazing). In terms of cleanliness, I think KE still wins because they would frequently service the lavatories whereas the DL lavatories were not as frequently serviced throughout the flight. If DL can have lavatories cleaned more, I think it would really bring their soft product on par with KE. My wife also appreciates the ladies only lavs on KE which DL does not do. The biggest improvement is the new int'l wifi on DL; this is just another reason in addition to MQMs that will make me fly DL.
I have noticed more and more native Koreans taking DL as well over the past few years. DL has really upped their marketing in Seoul and I think it's starting to show. On average, DL has cheaper flights than KE to the US and so this is also a big factor. On every DL flight, there have been Korean speaking flight attendants (however, some are pretty bad when they do the announcements).
It'll be interesting to see what happens with a potential JV b/w DL and KE in the future.
The soft product on DL has improved over the past couple years in Y. The meals are a bit better than it was 2 years ago but I still think KE has better meals overall. DL could try to make the meals better IMO. DL's 747 has better AVOD than KE as well (the movie collection is pretty amazing). In terms of cleanliness, I think KE still wins because they would frequently service the lavatories whereas the DL lavatories were not as frequently serviced throughout the flight. If DL can have lavatories cleaned more, I think it would really bring their soft product on par with KE. My wife also appreciates the ladies only lavs on KE which DL does not do. The biggest improvement is the new int'l wifi on DL; this is just another reason in addition to MQMs that will make me fly DL.
I have noticed more and more native Koreans taking DL as well over the past few years. DL has really upped their marketing in Seoul and I think it's starting to show. On average, DL has cheaper flights than KE to the US and so this is also a big factor. On every DL flight, there have been Korean speaking flight attendants (however, some are pretty bad when they do the announcements).
It'll be interesting to see what happens with a potential JV b/w DL and KE in the future.
Jul 28, 2014, 9:32 pm
#51
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: 대한민국 (South Korea) - ex-PVG (上海)
Programs: UA MM / LT Gold (LT UC), DL SM, AA PLT (AC), OZ, KE; GE and Korean SES (like GE); Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,995
Originally posed by pbarnette: doubt it has much of anything to do with some hard feelings over DL and KE's business relationship.
May 20, 2015, 9:42 am
#52
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: DL DM, TK Elite (*Gold), AA EXP (matched and prob not for long!)
Posts: 251
Some insight from Korean's VP of Americas here:centreforaviation.com/analysis/korean-air-pt-2-delta-air-lines-difficult-but-potential-jv-partner-pause-on-us-latam-growth-224067
Perhaps the biggest near future strategic change for Korean Air is a possible partnership – even joint-venture – with Delta Air Lines. Although the two are members of SkyTeam, the Korean-Delta relationship has been one of the most sour in any alliance. It was Delta that cancelled the codeshares with Korean Air, Mr Jackson says. Delta also no longer allowed its frequent flyers to accumulate elite qualifying miles when flying on Korean Air-coded flights, a move likely designed to keep Delta's members on Delta-coded flights.
There are many theories on the cause of the relationship's decline, and Mr Jackson declines to go into history. Probably the most logical explanation however is Korean Air's sheer size across the Pacific and its ability to tap into the China-US sixth freedom market. Delta believes the share of sixth freedom traffic in that market is disproportionately high compared to its calculated world average. In the China-US market, however, Chinese and US carriers sat out from growth for a long term, leaving an opportunity for the likes of Korean Air.
Mr Jackson acknowledges Korean Air has suffered an impact to its business from the decline in the Delta relationship, but believes Korean Air's longer market presence and scale allowed it to withstand the impact better than if the relationship decline had occurred with a smaller and younger trans-Pacific carrier.
Although the public facing elements of the relationship are unchanged, Mr Jackson thinks there has been change in outlook between the managements. "There's too much at stake and to be realised," Mr Jackon says. This would be unlikely to produce a return to the status quo. Rather the outcome would likely be a stronger partnership than before, and even a joint venture. Many see Delta's actions as retaliation and a way to force Korean Air into a joint-venture.
"It's no secret people think Delta is 'my way or the highway'," Mr Jackson says. Korean Air has been watching Delta's Asian growth. While Delta's capacity numbers may indicate size, Korean Air is aware of the strength it brings for onward Asian points, especially in China. Most of these points will not receive direct US service in the foreseeable future, giving an advantage to those who hub to them. "We don't have to take the first offer," Mr Jackson says.
There are many theories on the cause of the relationship's decline, and Mr Jackson declines to go into history. Probably the most logical explanation however is Korean Air's sheer size across the Pacific and its ability to tap into the China-US sixth freedom market. Delta believes the share of sixth freedom traffic in that market is disproportionately high compared to its calculated world average. In the China-US market, however, Chinese and US carriers sat out from growth for a long term, leaving an opportunity for the likes of Korean Air.
Mr Jackson acknowledges Korean Air has suffered an impact to its business from the decline in the Delta relationship, but believes Korean Air's longer market presence and scale allowed it to withstand the impact better than if the relationship decline had occurred with a smaller and younger trans-Pacific carrier.
Although the public facing elements of the relationship are unchanged, Mr Jackson thinks there has been change in outlook between the managements. "There's too much at stake and to be realised," Mr Jackon says. This would be unlikely to produce a return to the status quo. Rather the outcome would likely be a stronger partnership than before, and even a joint venture. Many see Delta's actions as retaliation and a way to force Korean Air into a joint-venture.
"It's no secret people think Delta is 'my way or the highway'," Mr Jackson says. Korean Air has been watching Delta's Asian growth. While Delta's capacity numbers may indicate size, Korean Air is aware of the strength it brings for onward Asian points, especially in China. Most of these points will not receive direct US service in the foreseeable future, giving an advantage to those who hub to them. "We don't have to take the first offer," Mr Jackson says.
May 20, 2015, 9:54 am
#53
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,413
Interesting, and it sounds surprisingly frank given Jackson's position as (presumably) an American working for a family-owned Korean conglomerate.
Jun 8, 2015, 3:22 pm
#54
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: DL DM, TK Elite (*Gold), AA EXP (matched and prob not for long!)
Posts: 251
More optimism from Delta prez Ed Bastian:
full article here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0OO26I20150608
Delta is also interested in growing its relationship with long-time partner Korean Air Lines Co Ltd (003490.KS) after their ties were weakened by Delta's acquisition of Northwest Airlines, which already had extensive Asian routes and competed with KAL, Bastian said.
"We've been working hard with our Korean colleagues to reestablish a solid base for the relationship," he said. "I'm optimistic we'll find an answer" on how to proceed.
"We've been working hard with our Korean colleagues to reestablish a solid base for the relationship," he said. "I'm optimistic we'll find an answer" on how to proceed.
Jun 8, 2015, 4:15 pm
#55
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 12,482