Thinking of switching from DL to AA? Check today's changes to AA's FF program
Apr 8, 2014, 7:30 pm
#17
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Eh, the stopover thing hurts a bit, but If you're traveling to Europe, it's not such a huge hit to have to spend 10k miles on an intra-EU coach segment. If you want a Business Class trip to Tokyo with a stopover in HNL, yeah that's going to cost you 137,500 miles now instead of 100,000. But when you consider it'll cost you 140k on Delta's new program anyway (assuming you can find Level 1), DL's "free" stopover isn't such a huge differentiator... and with AA you could upgrade the long haul back the other direction to international first class for 12.5k more.
No doubt AA elites are smarting quite a bit right now, but I wouldn't go so far as to say this makes DL better.
No doubt AA elites are smarting quite a bit right now, but I wouldn't go so far as to say this makes DL better.
Apr 8, 2014, 7:36 pm
#18
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Compare revenue per passenger mile to the CPM breakeven points under the new system.
$32.942 billion in passenger revenue, and 195 billion revenue passenger miles flown = 16.89 cents per mile.
A 125,000 mile BIS DM earns 281,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that DM would need to spend $25,568. $25,568 / 125,000 BIS miles = 20.45 cents.
A 75,000 mile BIS DM earns 150,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that PM would need to spend $16,667. $16,667 / 75,000 BIS miles = 22.22 cents.
A 50,000 mile BIS DM earns 100,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that GM would need to spend $12,500. $12,500 / 50,000 BIS miles = 25.00 cents.
A 25,000 mile BIS FO earns 31,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that FO would need to spend $4,464. $4,464 / 25,000 BIS miles = 17.86 cents.
This excludes Amex spend, since it's the same under old and new. This also assumes no class of service bonus, which can only increase the miles earned under the old system anyway and inflate the spend required to break even under the new system.
You don't come out ahead unless you spend above average. Isn't that the whole point of this kind of system?
$32.942 billion in passenger revenue, and 195 billion revenue passenger miles flown = 16.89 cents per mile.
A 125,000 mile BIS DM earns 281,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that DM would need to spend $25,568. $25,568 / 125,000 BIS miles = 20.45 cents.
A 75,000 mile BIS DM earns 150,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that PM would need to spend $16,667. $16,667 / 75,000 BIS miles = 22.22 cents.
A 50,000 mile BIS DM earns 100,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that GM would need to spend $12,500. $12,500 / 50,000 BIS miles = 25.00 cents.
A 25,000 mile BIS FO earns 31,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that FO would need to spend $4,464. $4,464 / 25,000 BIS miles = 17.86 cents.
This excludes Amex spend, since it's the same under old and new. This also assumes no class of service bonus, which can only increase the miles earned under the old system anyway and inflate the spend required to break even under the new system.
You don't come out ahead unless you spend above average. Isn't that the whole point of this kind of system?
Last edited by javabytes; Apr 8, 2014 at 8:05 pm Reason: Long day... passenger yield, not PRASM...
Apr 8, 2014, 8:19 pm
#19
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Apr 8, 2014, 8:21 pm
#20
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No problem... I will say, however, that I like the fact that MQM's are still based off of how far you fly... if they change MQM's to being based off of how much you spend, they need to come up with some way of still rewarding people for staying loyal to Delta and taking an inconvenient connecting flight instead of going direct on another carrier (in my case, AA).
Apr 8, 2014, 8:30 pm
#21
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Re: OP. I don't have any rose-colored glasses when it comes to AA, though they still have a good chance of me switching to them. DL has removed so much value from their program that for me, changing is almost a no-brainer.
Would also remind people that DL quietly devalued certain awards, like SE Asia to 80K, with no communication a number of months ago.
Trying to compare award charts to fares on revenue tickets is hogwash. The charts change much less frequently, and with the multi-tiered bit the structure to yield-manage is already built in.
If someone earns miles on sale fares and burns them on lowest-tier awards they're treated almost as persona non grata by Delta. But the airline controls the seat allocations in both instances, so if you get the sale fare or the low-tier seat there's an excellent chance it's because it would be a seat that would have gone unfilled anyway. So even though you're low-rev, it's still much better than no-rev. DL doesn't think that should get you any status or much in RDMs, but without those it just becomes about price.
AA's off-peak awards also look potentially useful, as DL's at 35K to Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America are overpriced from many places relative to distance.
Would also remind people that DL quietly devalued certain awards, like SE Asia to 80K, with no communication a number of months ago.
Trying to compare award charts to fares on revenue tickets is hogwash. The charts change much less frequently, and with the multi-tiered bit the structure to yield-manage is already built in.
If someone earns miles on sale fares and burns them on lowest-tier awards they're treated almost as persona non grata by Delta. But the airline controls the seat allocations in both instances, so if you get the sale fare or the low-tier seat there's an excellent chance it's because it would be a seat that would have gone unfilled anyway. So even though you're low-rev, it's still much better than no-rev. DL doesn't think that should get you any status or much in RDMs, but without those it just becomes about price.
AA's off-peak awards also look potentially useful, as DL's at 35K to Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America are overpriced from many places relative to distance.
Apr 8, 2014, 8:41 pm
#23
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Apr 8, 2014, 9:11 pm
#24
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If someone earns miles on sale fares and burns them on lowest-tier awards they're treated almost as persona non grata by Delta. But the airline controls the seat allocations in both instances, so if you get the sale fare or the low-tier seat there's an excellent chance it's because it would be a seat that would have gone unfilled anyway. So even though you're low-rev, it's still much better than no-rev. DL doesn't think that should get you any status or much in RDMs, but without those it just becomes about price.
Apr 8, 2014, 9:48 pm
#25
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Compare revenue per passenger mile to the CPM breakeven points under the new system.
$32.942 billion in passenger revenue, and 195 billion revenue passenger miles flown = 16.89 cents per mile.
A 125,000 mile BIS DM earns 281,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that DM would need to spend $25,568. $25,568 / 125,000 BIS miles = 20.45 cents.
A 75,000 mile BIS DM earns 150,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that PM would need to spend $16,667. $16,667 / 75,000 BIS miles = 22.22 cents.
A 50,000 mile BIS DM earns 100,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that GM would need to spend $12,500. $12,500 / 50,000 BIS miles = 25.00 cents.
A 25,000 mile BIS FO earns 31,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that FO would need to spend $4,464. $4,464 / 25,000 BIS miles = 17.86 cents.
This excludes Amex spend, since it's the same under old and new. This also assumes no class of service bonus, which can only increase the miles earned under the old system anyway and inflate the spend required to break even under the new system.
You don't come out ahead unless you spend above average. Isn't that the whole point of this kind of system?
$32.942 billion in passenger revenue, and 195 billion revenue passenger miles flown = 16.89 cents per mile.
A 125,000 mile BIS DM earns 281,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that DM would need to spend $25,568. $25,568 / 125,000 BIS miles = 20.45 cents.
A 75,000 mile BIS DM earns 150,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that PM would need to spend $16,667. $16,667 / 75,000 BIS miles = 22.22 cents.
A 50,000 mile BIS DM earns 100,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that GM would need to spend $12,500. $12,500 / 50,000 BIS miles = 25.00 cents.
A 25,000 mile BIS FO earns 31,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that FO would need to spend $4,464. $4,464 / 25,000 BIS miles = 17.86 cents.
This excludes Amex spend, since it's the same under old and new. This also assumes no class of service bonus, which can only increase the miles earned under the old system anyway and inflate the spend required to break even under the new system.
You don't come out ahead unless you spend above average. Isn't that the whole point of this kind of system?
So, yes, this definitely is a system that rewards those whose spending is substantially above average relative to CASM, RASM and average yield. This is acutely true for both Platinums and Golds, who must spend substantially above average yield to earn an equivalent amount of miles under the new scheme.
More worrisome in looking at these figures is that it still remains possible to earn status by spending substantially less than CASM. One might well expect the MQD requirements to edge up over time to reflect this fact.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:20 am
#26
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Stopover loss is huge. But they still offer complimentary UG's to EXP's on tcons, and they offer much better UG instruments than DL's measy 4 GUC.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:58 am
#27
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Apr 9, 2014, 3:54 am
#28
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1 8 SWU instruments that can be used anywhere, twice as many as DL(not sure if one AA SWU is used per segment or if one SWU is good for the all segments on a one way portion of a ticket).
2 The ability as a exp plat to upgrade for free at any fare class ex JFK to LAX and SFO. I don't believe AA has premium transcon service from JFK to SEA.
3 An award system that actually rewards the FF with low international J options
4 value of miles flown are equal to miles earned.
granted, AA does not givefree lounge access to their ex plats. I believe the annual cost is $400.00 or by means of being a member of a CC with a very high annual membership fee.
Still, what AA has taken away still leaves them with a better overall FF program. Once you start taking away items 1-3 then they will be on more of a level playing surface with DL's FF program.
Apr 9, 2014, 4:09 am
#29
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Compare revenue per passenger mile to the CPM breakeven points under the new system.
$32.942 billion in passenger revenue, and 195 billion revenue passenger miles flown = 16.89 cents per mile.
A 125,000 mile BIS DM earns 281,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that DM would need to spend $25,568. $25,568 / 125,000 BIS miles = 20.45 cents.
A 75,000 mile BIS DM earns 150,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that PM would need to spend $16,667. $16,667 / 75,000 BIS miles = 22.22 cents.
A 50,000 mile BIS DM earns 100,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that GM would need to spend $12,500. $12,500 / 50,000 BIS miles = 25.00 cents.
A 25,000 mile BIS FO earns 31,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that FO would need to spend $4,464. $4,464 / 25,000 BIS miles = 17.86 cents.
This excludes Amex spend, since it's the same under old and new. This also assumes no class of service bonus, which can only increase the miles earned under the old system anyway and inflate the spend required to break even under the new system.
You don't come out ahead unless you spend above average. Isn't that the whole point of this kind of system?
$32.942 billion in passenger revenue, and 195 billion revenue passenger miles flown = 16.89 cents per mile.
A 125,000 mile BIS DM earns 281,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that DM would need to spend $25,568. $25,568 / 125,000 BIS miles = 20.45 cents.
A 75,000 mile BIS DM earns 150,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that PM would need to spend $16,667. $16,667 / 75,000 BIS miles = 22.22 cents.
A 50,000 mile BIS DM earns 100,000 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that GM would need to spend $12,500. $12,500 / 50,000 BIS miles = 25.00 cents.
A 25,000 mile BIS FO earns 31,250 miles in a year (base + Medallion bonus). To earn the same amount of miles in 2015, that FO would need to spend $4,464. $4,464 / 25,000 BIS miles = 17.86 cents.
This excludes Amex spend, since it's the same under old and new. This also assumes no class of service bonus, which can only increase the miles earned under the old system anyway and inflate the spend required to break even under the new system.
You don't come out ahead unless you spend above average. Isn't that the whole point of this kind of system?
Your whining aside, for example, calling the cost "inflated" when it's no higher than what many of us were paying before, any rational read of your post explains why DL's new system makes more sense. Another example: you state to make a level, "you must spend" when it's more like DL is encouraging business from those who spend more. It's not about you; it's about DL using the rewards to get profitable business.
In other words, you seem to think SM should somehow reward you, and miss the point that SM is a marketing tool to drive more profitable business to DL. Who cares what you have to spend to get to what level? The point is what DL has to give to drive more profitable business. You seem to be looking at this from a vantage point that you want to earn a certain status. Hats off to DL if they can squeeze more money out of fools willing to spend just to get status, but that's not the point of DL having the program. If you think additional spend will get you perks that pay, you might spend on a MR. But the idea that anyone would go out of their way to spend lots of extra cash just to get status doesn't make sense. Anyone who does that acts illogically. (Spending a couple hundred to get from GM to PM so you can redeposit awards tickets might be worth it to some. Spending thousands extra for that makes no sense.)
You're flying with the equivalent of an early bird special coupon. That's not to whom the restaurant sends a free bottle of wine to the table. The discount on the meal is the reward for using the coupon. The free bottle of wine is saved for the business customer who entertains large client groups a couple times a week when he comes in with his wife every so often.
Last edited by CJKatl; Apr 9, 2014 at 4:24 am
Apr 9, 2014, 4:17 am
#30
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To me the biggest FF benefits that AA has that DL doesn't are:
1 8 SWU instruments that can be used anywhere, twice as many as DL(not sure if one AA SWU is used per segment or if one SWU is good for the all segments on a one way portion of a ticket).
2 The ability as a exp plat to upgrade for free at any fare class ex JFK to LAX and SFO. I don't believe AA has premium transcon service from JFK to SEA.
3 An award system that actually rewards the FF with low international J options
4 value of miles flown are equal to miles earned.
granted, AA does not givefree lounge access to their ex plats. I believe the annual cost is $400.00 or by means of being a member of a CC with a very high annual membership fee.
Still, what AA has taken away still leaves them with a better overall FF program. Once you start taking away items 1-3 then they will be on more of a level playing surface with DL's FF program.
1 8 SWU instruments that can be used anywhere, twice as many as DL(not sure if one AA SWU is used per segment or if one SWU is good for the all segments on a one way portion of a ticket).
2 The ability as a exp plat to upgrade for free at any fare class ex JFK to LAX and SFO. I don't believe AA has premium transcon service from JFK to SEA.
3 An award system that actually rewards the FF with low international J options
4 value of miles flown are equal to miles earned.
granted, AA does not givefree lounge access to their ex plats. I believe the annual cost is $400.00 or by means of being a member of a CC with a very high annual membership fee.
Still, what AA has taken away still leaves them with a better overall FF program. Once you start taking away items 1-3 then they will be on more of a level playing surface with DL's FF program.
The point is each of us looks at what is available and, based on our own flying needs, decides which program is best. Those who think AA cares about them more than DL need to realize these are business decisions, not marriages.