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Old Mar 5, 17, 5:56 am   #31
  
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Originally Posted by Mats View Post
Perhaps I'm unduly optimistic, but this doesn't seem like it will last.

The current body scanner plan is fairly stupid: go through the scanner, a piece of lint shows up in your breast pocket, then someone presses on the pocket to ensure that it's lint, not a machine gun.

The new procedure is laughably sinister: go through the scanner, lint shows you up in your pocket, so your entire body must swept up and down, swabbed, and frisked and re-frisked, even though the scanner pointed out the area of the "anomaly."

It's so time and labour intensive that they can't pull it off.

The quote about "cognitive strain" was unfortunate. TSA staff are begging and begging for respect. Now their own agency has made it clear that they do not believe that their staff have the intellectual capacity for the job. That comment could easily exacerbate tension at the checkpoint.

There are significant problems with public humiliation, but I also think such lengthy and intrusive searches point to the elephant in the room: "What are they looking for?" The answer is: "We'll know when we find it."
Scanners alarm on lint or absolutely nothing about 50% of the time so there are an awful lot of people going to be sexually assaulted over nothing. And there are going to be, hopefully an lot of very angry passengers.

I, too, had noticed the "cognitive strain" comment and immediately thought well that certainly is an admission that your staff can't do their jobs.

The other comment that is drawing much criticism is that this procedure is being instituted because of failures in 2015. It's taken TSA two years to come up with a procedure?

I wonder if screeners volunteer to do these pat downs or if they are required to do them whether they want to do so or not. If they are all volunteers, I would question their reasons for volunteering.

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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
Could it be argued that TSA is the deterrent so nobody would dare attempt to smuggle a "dangerous item" through security? This is proof screening works.
Deterrent effect hasn't seemed to keep people from bringing guns and other "dangerous items" in their carry-ons.

Last edited by TWA884; Mar 5, 17 at 10:34 am Reason: Merge consecutive posts
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Old Mar 5, 17, 8:02 am   #32
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
Could it be argued that TSA is the deterrent so nobody would dare attempt to smuggle a "dangerous item" through security? This is proof screening works.



What if your genitals make overt contact with a TSA screener's hand? Will the screener have recourse?
Please explain how that would happen.
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Old Mar 5, 17, 9:45 am   #33
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Originally Posted by petaluma1 View Post
Scanners alarm on lint or absolutely nothing about 50% of the time so there are an awful lot of people going to be sexually assaulted over nothing. And there are going to be, hopefully an lot of very angry passengers.

I, too, had noticed the "cognitive strain" comment and immediately thought well that certainly is an admission that your staff can't do their jobs.

The other comment that is drawing much criticism is that this procedure is being instituted because of failures in 2015. It's taken TSA two years to come up with a procedure?

I wonder if screeners volunteer to do these pat downs or if they are required to do them whether they want to do so or not. If they are all volunteers, I would question their reasons for volunteering.
<redacted> that "cognitive strain" statement, from the mouth of TSA, pretty well sums up claims of incompetence across the ranks of TSA employees.

Last edited by TWA884; Mar 5, 17 at 10:38 am Reason: Comment on moderation
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Old Mar 5, 17, 9:54 am   #34
  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
<redacted> that "cognitive strain" statement, from the mouth of TSA, pretty well sums up claims of incompetence across the ranks of TSA employees.

Last edited by TWA884; Mar 5, 17 at 10:38 am Reason: Conform quoted post to moderator's edit
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Old Mar 5, 17, 10:16 am   #35
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
Please explain how that would happen.
Thrusting the groin area to make contact? Related to wardrobe "malfunction" or a special wardrobe function?
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Old Mar 5, 17, 10:58 am   #36
  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
Please explain how that would happen.
In the pre-PreCheck days, I was getting my opt-out pat down.

TSA: did you remove everything from your pockets ?
me: yes
TSA gives my front the back of the hands swipe, then focuses on something on my left front, near the pocket and starts feeling it with his fingers. Says "are you sure there's nothing in your pocket ?"
me: yes
TSA (still fondling the object with his fingers): "then what's this ?"
me: that's my dick
TSA: you don't have to be rude.
me: I'm not the one who grabs dicks for a living
TSA: you're clear, have a good trip.

We can debate whether a barrier of denim and nitrile glove constitute "direct" contact, but it was definitely overt, conducted in front of anyone who cared to watch.
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Old Mar 5, 17, 12:00 pm   #37
  
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
What if your genitals make overt contact with a TSA screener's hand? Will the screener have recourse?
It's an interesting question to ask. What if a passenger gets an erection from a screening? Will he be stopped from flying 'with a loaded gun'.
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Old Mar 5, 17, 1:40 pm   #38
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Originally Posted by cynicAAl View Post
In the pre-PreCheck days, I was getting my opt-out pat down.

TSA: did you remove everything from your pockets ?
me: yes
TSA gives my front the back of the hands swipe, then focuses on something on my left front, near the pocket and starts feeling it with his fingers. Says "are you sure there's nothing in your pocket ?"
me: yes
TSA (still fondling the object with his fingers): "then what's this ?"
me: that's my dick
TSA: you don't have to be rude.
me: I'm not the one who grabs dicks for a living
TSA: you're clear, have a good trip.

We can debate whether a barrier of denim and nitrile glove constitute "direct" contact, but it was definitely overt, conducted in front of anyone who cared to watch.
That would not be an overt act by the passenger but by the screener. How a person arranges himself for comfort is not a concern for TSA. As Penny (BBT) told Sheldon, "Then, maybe you should let it go" would be an appropriate response.
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Old Mar 6, 17, 7:49 am   #39
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TSA apparently knows that passengers will consider the new Grope Down as a sexual assault.
Quote:
TSA Warns Local Police About Its New Airport Pat-Downs
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...port-pat-downs

Quote:
But the agency does expect some passengers to consider the examination unusual. In fact, the TSA decided to inform local police in case anyone calls to report an “abnormal” federal frisking, according to a memo from an airport trade association obtained by Bloomberg News.
Apparently if a person gets any kind of pat down now the "Sexual Assault Grope Down" will be used. So lint in a pocket, SAGD. Credit card in a pocket SAGD. All because TSA screeners cannot be expected to figure out what screening steps are appropriate in each case. Any claims by TSA of having a "Well Trained Screener Force" have been completely shredded.

Quote:
The pat-down change, first reported Friday by Bloomberg News, is “intended to reduce the cognitive burden on [employees] who previously had to choose from various pat-down procedures depending on the type of screening lane,” the ACI-NA wrote in its notice.
Lastly, this article seems to confirm that the Grope Down can be done in public view regardless of what some TSA screener says.

Quote:
​​​​​​​ The TSA has all pat-downs conducted by an employee of the same gender as the traveler and allows a passenger to request a private area for the screening, as well as to have a witness present. Likewise, the traveler can request that the pat-down occur in public view.
I maintain if you think you have been assaulted then report it to the police. Just because TSA says they can do something doesn't make it true.
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Old Mar 6, 17, 8:13 am   #40
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I maintain if you think you have been assaulted then report it to the police. Just because TSA says they can do something doesn't make it true.
Indeed. The courts have not surrendered the right to review actions of the Executive Branch. And does any self-respecting judge want to really be the one who says the courts shouldn't be able to review instances where minors' "private parts" are fondled in ways by "public servants"?

The only question is how long will it be until a victim of a pedophile ends up having their private parts groped by an adult yet again, this time in plain sight at an airport and done by a person in a TSA uniform using this "new standard" "pat-down".
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Old Mar 6, 17, 9:52 am   #41
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
I maintain if you think you have been assaulted then report it to the police. Just because TSA says they can do something doesn't make it true.
As I usually travel by myself, I plan on requesting a uniformed officer to witness any pat down I may receive going forward. I will also go down like a lightly tapped footballer begging the official for a penalty in stoppage time.

They've only succeeded in further lengthening the range for which I am willing to drive instead of fly.
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Old Mar 6, 17, 10:20 am   #42
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As I usually travel by myself, I plan on requesting a uniformed officer to witness any pat down I may receive going forward. I will also go down like a lightly tapped footballer begging the official for a penalty in stoppage time.

They've only succeeded in further lengthening the range for which I am willing to drive instead of fly.
I think I would try shamming the screener, loud enough to get others attention. Making some enjoyable sounds while getting a grope down should do the trick.
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Old Mar 6, 17, 10:31 am   #43
  
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Looks like TSA is trying to head complainers off at the pass:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...port-pat-downs

Quote:
In fact, the TSA decided to inform local police in case anyone calls to report an “abnormal” federal frisking, according to a memo from an airport trade association obtained by Bloomberg News.
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Old Mar 6, 17, 10:35 am   #44
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
I think I would try shamming the screener, loud enough to get others attention. Making some enjoyable sounds while getting a grope down should do the trick.
I generally try to avoid shaming the individual screener, as in my experience most are even less thrilled than we are about the whole process. I had one guy who, when I told him that he was patting me down because his co-worker would not let me use the Precheck line as I was shepherding someone travelling with me through the elite line, even though my boarding pass clearly stated Precheck, causing me to use normal security and opt out, he was really pissed at his co-worker . That said, imagine being told by your boss that you must thoroughly touch and feel someone's genitals or you'll be fired...the worst that generally would happen to us as passengers is not flying that day if we decline the "full" screening. I don't envy someone who is coerced into committing sexual assault at threat of job loss. I don't have a lot of sympathy for most TSA employees, as most had a good idea of what they were getting themselves into, but I have a nonzero level of sympathy, barring the few who feel "a calling" and seem to feel they are the only thing preventing disaster. I sense that, for the majority, this is the best paying job they can find (logically, would you work at TSA frontline if you could do almost any other job? I'd rather be a plumber.). But with these changes, my level of sympathy is looking more and more to be asymptotically approaching zero...
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Old Mar 6, 17, 10:40 am   #45
  
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Originally Posted by TheBOSman View Post
I generally try to avoid shaming the individual screener, as in my experience most are even less thrilled than we are about the whole process. I had one guy who, when I told him that he was patting me down because his co-worker would not let me use the Precheck line as I was shepherding someone travelling with me through the elite line, even though my boarding pass clearly stated Precheck, causing me to use normal security and opt out, he was really pissed at his co-worker . That said, imagine being told by your boss that you must thoroughly touch and feel someone's genitals or you'll be fired...the worst that generally would happen to us as passengers is not flying that day if we decline the "full" screening. I don't envy someone who is coerced into committing sexual assault at threat of job loss. I don't have a lot of sympathy for most TSA employees, as most had a good idea of what they were getting themselves into, but I have a nonzero level of sympathy, barring the few who feel "a calling" and seem to feel they are the only thing preventing disaster. I sense that, for the majority, this is the best paying job they can find (logically, would you work at TSA frontline if you could do almost any other job? I'd rather be a plumber.). But with these changes, my level of sympathy is looking more and more to be asymptotically approaching zero...
Are all screeners required to learn the technique or is it just volunteers? I would be very suspect of someone who volunteers to do this job.
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